* I would like to apologize for the loss of my promised Classical Text post yesterday. I wrote a pretty decent exegesis of Chapter 39 of the Neijing which my computer promptly ate. I will try to reproduce it this evening. Now on to the post of the day. Tuesdays are Food + Drink day here at Deepest Health.
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In my years interacting with the Chinese medicine community, only one thing has really irritated me about it. You may guess by the title that it has something to do with veganism. Many professors and students I have interacted with have claimed that being vegan is not healthy, not balanced, or otherwise out of step with Chinese medical philosophy. One student went so far as to claim that I would absolutely not be able to maintain a vegan diet as I progressed through the program! I have not found this to be the case, and in fact, my appreciation for veganism has simply grown the more I’ve learned about the human body and Chinese medicine principles. Before continuing, I want to make clear that I am not a militant vegan – I do not interfere in the personal business of others. Further, I am not prepared to claim that veganism is the right diet for everyone. However, I do believe it is a more humane choice, on balance, and I do believe that for the average American it may represent the best shot at creating an optimal diet.
I have never been able to extract many coherent arguments from folks who are opposed to the diet I have thrived on for 8 years (and that my daughter has thrived on nearly all her life) but below is my attempt to articulate and then refute what points I have managed to round up.
1. Make sure to include warming foods: I have heard the argument that vegan diets are too cooling. This is because the majority of fruits, vegetables and grains of are a cool or cold nature, thus a diet consisting of many fruits, vegetables and grains will naturally be on the cool side. Because the Stomach requires a warm/hot environment, dumping a bunch of cold on top of it is not likely to result in good digestion. Poor digestion will eventually harm the whole body. So, don’t abandon veganism – just warm up your diet!
Here’s a partial list of my favorite warm foods: mustard greens, members of the onion family (garlic, onion, chive), parsnips, winter squash, cherries, oyster mushrooms and chestnuts! The onion family is probably the easiest and most useful group, because they can be added to almost anything!
2. Cook your food: Even if foods are cold, cooking methods can increase their warmth. I don’t want to step on any raw foodist toes, and I know that many people have had great results with that diet. But, given the conversations I’ve had with mentors and colleagues, from a Chinese medicine perspective the inclusion of cooked food in the diet is essential for the long-term health of the Spleen/Stomach. Stir frying, baking and slow cooking will all impart a Stomach-sparing warmth to your food that can help bring balance to a vegan diet.
3. Use the five elements to create balance: One way that I have been working to maintain my balance is by using the five elements to balance the colors and flavors in my diet. I wrote a post on the subject that may be of use to you – “See how easily you can use 5 element theory to eat optimally.”
4. Alter your diet with the seasons: For people who live in relatively isolated locations, following a vegan diet can be difficult. This difficult has caused some vegans to find a few meals they can easily create and stick with those. While this is an admirable survival method in a difficult situation, it can do little more than help you to merely survive. To experience the full benefit of a vegan diet, in line with Chinese medicine principles, you must adapt your diet to the seasons. This means eating relatively less and lighter in the spring, relatively more and heavier in the winter. It means finding in-season fruits and vegetables and enjoying them. It may mean growing a garden or visiting a local farmer’s market if you are lucky enough to have one nearby. Allowing nature to guide your eating habits is a great way to stay in balance.
5. Avoid processed foods: In situations as described in #4, sometimes people end up eating a lot of processed foods. This includes the obvious ones like dehydrated mashed potatoes and white pasta, but also those that are less obvious like tofu and soymilk. While processed soy and wheat products make getting the essential nutrients so much easier, they should not be relied upon too heavily. Get back to basics – whole grains like brown rice and quinoa combined (at the same meal or not) with legumes like black beans is a time honored way to fulfill many of your body systems. These whole foods, the fresher the better, are much more likely to contain good Qi, which will nourish your body much better. Processed, de-vitalized foods – while sometimes chemically identical to whole foods (due to addition of synthetic nutrients) they are not identical energetically.
6. Use Qigong and nature study to appreciate the energy of animals: One objection I have heard is that a vegan diet fails to absorb the important energy of animals, which is for whatever reason important to human health. While I don’t understand this argument, if you can call it an argument, I will point out that there are other – perhaps superior – ways to absorb the essence of something. Using Qigong
or various meditation and energy work methods, one can easily interact with the energy of anything, animal or not. This gentle and non-obtrusive interaction when done from a place of respect can definitely help you to feel the vitality of the animal and incorporate it into your energy body.
7. Western tips: Pay attention to B-12, protein: A list of this kind wouldn’t be complete without the requisite nod to the helpful reductionism of Western science. Using the tips above will help you to create a quite balanced diet, but as a check and balance, be sure to investigate where you are obtaining B-12 and protein. The B-12 debate rages on, but it is my understanding that the only significant natural sources are animal related. I consume Red Star Nutritional yeast, which is fortified with B-12 and I also take a sublingual B-12 
Disagree with what I’ve said here? Agree and want to let me know it? Post in the comments and get the discussion going!
Eric
Related posts:
- 5 Simple Chinese Medicine based ways to improve your vegan (or not) diet
- Book review: Healing with Whole Foods by Paul Pitchford
- See how easily you can use 5 element theory to eat optimally
- What is Chinese Medicine? — Lifestyle counseling and dietary therapy
- Living in harmony with the seasons: Introduction – Part I
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Eric,
These are sound suggestions. I am not a vegan now, but have been in the past. Sort of the more militant and straight-edge variety, in fact. But these days I eat meat only sparingly due to the difficulty of procuring meat that is both halal and raised humanely. So I can use your tips to ensure that my more vegan meals will be healthful. I am however a staunch advocate of raw milk, as it has been the single most salutary food I’ve ever had. Kudos on a well-balanced post.
Also, there is some Daoist precendence for veganism, which always makes a good argument against the “it’s not Chinese medicine” argument. There’s no such thing as a monolithic Chinese medicine anyway.
Abdallah,
I’ve heard good things about raw milk – I just can’t stomach it! Since raw milk seems to usually be taken in a humane manner, and usually in small batches – I’m definitely open to it. Anyway, I’m glad you found value in my post.
I’d love to hear more about the Daoist precedent for veganism… I’ve yet to find anything in any literature about it!
Thanks!
Eric
I’m super-curious what you think about treating someone with an extreme deficiency. Wouldn’t animal products (lamb broth or broken bone soup for example) be far superior in getting the patient back to balance?
I don’t fault veganism if it works, and applaud you for finding a balance, but am wondering what you would recommend to a patient who could benefit from animal products? Do you think there isn’t a benefit, or that plant products are always sufficient? I think about this question a lot myself.
One thing that I think gets overlooked is the quality of a protein. I think beans are great, but tofu and other mono-crop soy products, not so much. Many vegetarians believe they are healthier than meat-eaters but I’d say that if you’re eating non-organic, non-local tofu almost daily along with mono-crop bread then you’re not as healthy as you think. I can’t recommend Richard Manning’s Against The Grain enough (for meat and non-meat eaters):
http://brandonwbrown.blogspot.com/2005/04/against-grain.html
I totally agree about the need for avoiding mono-crop and non-local foods. This is a problem of all diets. I do think that following a vegetarian or vegan diet tends to impart a more intentful attitude around food in general, so that many vegans and vegetarians know more about how their food is grown and where it is grown. That being said, there are some seriously stupid vegans in the world.
I do eat plenty of soy products, but all of them are organic, many of them are fermented, and nearly all of them are produced locally (though the soybeans themselves are not).
On balance, I would rather eat a monocrop non-local soybean than a locally produced chicken wing because of my beliefs about suffering and my charge to avoid inflicting it. But that’s not part of my normal argument, because people get so up in arms about it. :D
Regarding deficiency. There are many plant foods that rectify deficiency. I know you’ve read Paul Pitchford, and while he does tend towards preaching sometimes, his dicussion on seaweeds and other blood building foods is excellent. Personally, I would probably use acupuncture, herbs, Qigong and lifestyle habit analysis (like, do they work too much?) before I recommended animal products.
If I was pressed (patient can’t/won’t take herbs and acupuncture, can’t do qigong, is bedridden, etc…) I would recommend raw milk and local farm eggs. I would not recommend meat. I think this is a pretty responsible position.
That being said, I am not going to be preaching veganism to patients… I think some people worry that I might. :)
Thanks for your comment and the book recommendation, Brandon.
Eric
Eric, My dad lives and works part time in China, one of the reasons he loves it so much is the food. Always flavorful and interesting he says. …
….I’m afraid of soy. After being vegetarian for 20 years I’ve gone back to meat in small portions occasionally. There is so much discussion about soy products and women and cancer and estrogen etc.. but I think that is probably soy milk and not natural soy found in beans etc?
I love Chinese food! I’m fortunate to have vegan friendly Chinese restaurants all around me, so I never have to go without. I’ve also become quite the cook – if I do say so myself. :)
You know, the thing with soy (like anything) is that too much of a good thing is a bad thing. Don’t be afraid!!! Cultures that eat soy have generally low cancer rates, whether that’s from soy or in spite of it – who knows. Just look for organic sources, preferably fermented/cultured (tempeh, yogurt) and regardless – don’t eat too much at once!
I think it’s the fault of the media that these hysterical states get created in the US over various things. Soy is good, soy is bad. Coffee is good, coffee is bad. Wine is good, wine is bad.
There’s never been a study that said that a varied diet, a happy disposition and common sense were bad – so I stick with that. ;)
I’m loving your website – keep it up!
Eric
Master of the Nei Jia, Sun Lu Tang, was a strict vegetarian (possibly vegan) on the instruction of an enigmatic taoist he was taught by while travelling. The story goes that he was skillfully descending a mountain on the way to take care of his ailing mother when his skills in descending were noticed by a great taoist master who challenged him. Recognizing the mysterious mans far superior ability Master Sun spent the day learning from him and said that these were the greatest lessons he ever recieved. One of the primary recommendations Master Sun recorded was that the man told him to stop eating all forms of meat which he did from that day forth. So, whenever i get the ol “meat is yang vegetables are yin so you will certainly be weak and sick” I think “I bet they wouldn’t say that so matter of factly to Sun Lu Tangs face” :)
Louis,
Awesome comment! I’d love to read more about this guy – I’m always looking for good historical precedent.
Thanks,
Eric
Nice! I was also told etc etc vegan was unhealthy while I was still in school even though I was perfectly healthy. I altered my diet and removed all raw foods out of fear for my spleen, became a bit malnourished since raw foods made up the majority of my diet and while in school, I found cooking to be a bit tedious sometimes (often).
I realized that my diet suited me as it was and my personal spleen issues had to do with dampness, not cold foods. As long as I minimize the main damp culprits, I can eat as much raw foods as I like with no ill effect.
I don’t advise my patients a vegan diet, nor do I advocate it at dinner parties. As in all things in OM, it depends on the individual’s needs and that is true for spirit path as well as physical health and life style. In examining patients’ eating habits, I always made sure they were well rounded and healthy. My patients usually find out eventually i am vegan and I answer all questions honestly about it.
Eric’s 7 tips above are key to ANY diet, vegan or non.
I recently moved to Japan, and what I initially thought was super annoying was that I can only get produce when it’s in season. It turns out to be a blessing, though, because I havent had to eat in those limitations since I was a kid! It has made me truly realize how the body’s needs change from season to season.
On a final note, I can never find a definitive report on sources of B12, so if you could recommend one that would be great. Since I lived through reckless veganism in my 20s, I shaped up and realized that adding seaweed to my diet keeps me healthy. I get complete blood work done every 2 years and Ive never been nutrient deficient and Ive been vegetarian for 22 years, vegan for 14.
I wished, in retrospect, that my teachers had been wise enough to understand the CM philosophy of individual patterns and hadn’t been so stringent about ‘Chinese’ diets. Criticism of my diet from my ’senseis’ made me angry and resentful and insecure about my own choices. Luckily I was able to get over it.
Steph
PS I believe Sun Si Miao was also veg!
Thank YOU! Ive been a vegetarian almost all my life and never have felt bad about it, until i came to NCNM. Which was the opposite of what i was expecting. This is my first year as a CCM and i wasn’t expecting to be bombarded with antiveg messages from student and teachers that i greatly respect. It made me insecure about both my views and my future as a doctor. I have always felt that dead animals contain no Qi or prana or energy, because they are dead. Which seems obvious to me. When you kill a plant it continues to hold its energy ( you can cut a flower and place it in water and it stays alive, or you can take a piece of a plant and replant it and it turns into another plant)once you kill an animal its energy leaves. Do no harm, i understand it as do no harm period. I don’t think these diets are right for everyone, but whats most important about what we are learning is that nothing can be generalized everyone is different. But i cant say how much i appreciate you writing this.
Stephanie,
Sorry to wait so long to get back to your comment – it’s been a harried couple of weeks for me. Thanks a lot for your thoughts. I agree about the pushing of “Chinese” diets… it’s unfortunate that this becomes such an issue. I don’t think it’s necessary, but I respect my teachers’ positions and agree to disagree with them on this issue. Some doctors have been receptive to conversation around the issue, some not – much like in Western medicine.
Regarding B-12, I do not have a ready link to a definitive report. But in my investigations it seems pretty clear that the majority of people thrive with some kind of supplementation, most safe being some kind of high potency sublingual B-12 supplement. Trader Joes (if you have them where you live) has a good one for cheap, but my ND friends recommend others.
Thanks again for your comment,
Eric
Kamela,
You’re welcome. I totally understand your dismay. I have to say, unfortunately, that it’s probably easier just NOT to talk about your diet in class. I had to swallow a whole lot of comments during my nutrition class, there are some very voiciferous proponents of the “wild foods” diet that includes raw milk products and meat… I’m not entirely sure what makes people so intense around this issue, I just know that I simply do not share their intensity. :D
I try not to get into lots of conversations with people about which foods are better or whatever, but simply acknowledge that no diet is right for everyone and that for every possible reason, this one is right for me. It’s right for my daughter and has been all her life. It’s right for my partner. It was right for my grandfather. It’s right for a whole lot of people I know. No amount of medical theory is likely to convince any of these folks otherwise.
It’s one thing if it were a new “fad” diet and the science didn’t support it – that’s simply not the case.
Anyway – don’t be discouraged and feel free to contact me directly if you ever feel despair. :)
Eric
Thanks for writing this up. I know that I am going to have many vegetarian/vegan patients in the future and I’m grateful to have you and this site as a source of non-allopathic, 5-element style information to relay to them.
Nice post, Eric. I am a vegetarian (98% vegan) and I also practice Chinese medicine. Practicing herbal medicine without having to resort to animal products can be challenging, especially with the more serious illnesses.
Veganism and vegetarianism definitely exist in Chinese medicine. Have you read this Daoist cookbook by Michael Saso? http://tinyurl.com/yqn2va
There’s also a book in Chinese “素食谱和中草药方”(464 pages) on vegetarian food and Chinese medicine. See http://tinyurl.com/24mwp8 (I have a scanned version of the book).
Good luck and keep practicing that compassion : )
Tom.
Tom,
Great links – thanks so much. I’d love to get a copy of that book. Incredible!
I’ve thought a lot about animal products in disease. I think at this point, I’ll take anything that is a shell (Mu Li, Chan Tui) and avoid the whole animals (Du Bi Chong) unless absolutely necessary. I’ll also clearly be recommending vegan dietary changes to patients that need some change in the way they eat.
Anyway, thanks a lot for the commend and look forward to more from you in the future.
Eric
My understanding of vitamin B-12 is that it is produced by the bacteria in your intestines. Most people on a diet of toxic/processed/overly cooked foods starve this helpful bacteria and one of the prevailing theories is to eat a lot of fermented foods because the ripe bacterial growth in these will help to feed and replenish the bacteria in your intestines.
When I read about accessing animal energy through Qigong and observation I was struck by the thought that, despite having done this my entire life with the rest of nature (especially plants) it has never occurred to me to do the same with animals. Of course, I have bonded with the animals I have known in my life, but I had a shift in what it means to access the energy of animals without having to eat them. I was vegetarian for 22 years before turning to meat again for health reasons. And while it is true I healed dramatically, in retrospect I see the entire nature of my diet shifted along with the addition of meat, and it was the totality of change that healed me. As I still had not embraced the idea of killing an animal for food it was really difficult to start eating meat, and I promised myself I would consider the process of turning animals into meat every time I ate. I used to feel guilt, but fortunately I was able to move into a place of gratitude and thanks. Now, I find I mostly use the “cast-off parts” from local small-time farmers for making broth, and eat little flesh. I hope this is not too much information, but I wanted to make the point of how deeply my food sources matter to me, where I get the energy I use to transform my world is key to how it will be transformed, I believe. Thanks, Eric, for pointing out something I should have understood long ago. The year of the Earth Rat happens to coincide with my shift to the CCM program, and I cannot think of a more fitting “Aha!” moment to commemorate the move.
Karin,
Thank you for your lovely and thought provoking observations. I think you will do wonderfully in the CCM program. Good luck! :)
Eric
Hi All,
I and my family we have been vegetarians all throughout our lives from generations. Nobody from our family i know has ever been a non vegan and we have no health problems. In India almost 50% population is vegetarian. Vegetarian diet can be even more nutrious than a non veg diet, include dairy products, fruits, lots of green vegetables, nuts and lentils in ur diet and u get all. And last but not the least a healthy body regime is essential. Thanx
#1 and #3 has been giving me a lot of benefit for years.
I used to think that raw vegetables and fruits have more enzymes and are better. It is better than cooked in fact but I ate too much of it and got stomaches in the morning. When I start to include more cooked food in my diet, I feel much more better and healthier.
My father who is a very health conscious person always remind me to eat all 5 colors of fruits and vegetables. Each color represent different minerals in the food that our body need. We can’t eat only the ones that we like but balance of all the 5 elements!
Thanks for the contribution.
You are deluding yourself because you have committed yourself to veganism for “moral” reason. You, yourself, put the problem of vitamin B12. That is not the only problem. But is critical.
Vegetable B12 sources are: brewers yeast (risky); tempeh (soy); seaweed (trace-source); miso & shoyu or tamari (trace-sources); soybean (trace-source).
Brewers yeast is risky because it is yeast, a monosaccharide dangerous for several reasons (including but not limited to systemic shock, liver harm, and encouragement of candida and other funguses and some cancers).
Commercial tofu and tempeh are dangerous, because they are made with and stored in plastic, and if they are not 100% organic, they are very likely to be GMO. So, you must either (a) make them yourself and utterly without using plastic or (b) use a 100% organic, dried variety that was made without use of plastic.
Except South River brand miso, virtually all miso is dangerous, because it is stored or packaged in plastic. And, most miso (but not South River brand) is pasteurized and, so, bears barely even a trace of B12.
Shoyu or tamari bears a trace, if not pasteurized. But some brands are stored in plastic.
To get enough B12 from shoyu, miso, and the other vegetable sources (except, PERHAPS, tofu and tempeh), you would need to eat much too much such sources and too often. The result would be serious yin/yang & 5 element imbalance and if the source is miso, tamari, or shoyu, too much salt.
B12 supplements will not solve the problem. The body cannot utilize suppplements adequately, and they can hurt the liver.
Beyond the B12 problem, others abound. Mostly they are troubles of yin/yang imbalance. But also they are troubles of lack of certain needed fatty acids and vitamin D3 or precursor vitamin D3 (a lack that supplements cannot supply or supply safely).
I shall not observe any of the other problems of vagan diet. This is a blog comment, not a book.
I suggest you consider eating (a) seafood creatures that lack awareness (like mussels and oysters) and, so, do not suffer (especially if you cook them so they die near-instantly), and (b) occasionally a LITTLE well-aged cheese that is made with vegetable “rennet” and that is either 100% organic or imported from Italy, France, Spain, Canada, or England (those nations’ cheeses are non-GMO) or made from sheep or goat milk, and (c) occasionally (perhaps once or twice per week) a fertile egg (unless your Yin-kidney is weak or your Yang-kidney imbalanced).
I submitted a comment yesterday, 21 April 2008. You have not posted it.
My message disagreed with you, strongly, and put technical details that rebut your position. I notice that you have not posted even one message that disagrees with you, but only messages that give you applause. I infer that you seek only comments that support your mistaken belief (a moral-driven, not scientific, apprehension).
Hi loup-bouc,
First of all, I would caution you against using such a combative tone when you’re trying to get information across. I find in my experience that it rarely brings the results I seek. I’m sorry if you were offended by my 24+ hour response time. I’m a student with a kid trying to run a business and I find I don’t always have the time I’d like to respond to comments. Add that to your objectionable tone and the fact that this is, after all, my blog and one of my leisure activities… you’ll see I wasn’t exactly ready to stay up all night crafting a response.
In fact, I’m still not. While you did provide, as you say, “technical details” you didn’t provide sources for those details. I’d be interested to see sources. Granted, I didn’t provide many sources for my suggestions above. But, then, they were suggestions and made in the spirit of discovery – my attempt to speak to the points sometimes made by students and professors around me. Plus, you know, it’s my blog. You are attempting to put forward a scientific refutation of my entirely unscientific musings and associated suggestions. Let’s keep this in perspective, yes?
The fact of the matter is that I know many people who have (so far) lived long and prosperous lives on a vegan diet. Perhaps they will die horrible deaths or suffer in some, so far, undefined way because of living their “mistaken beliefs.” Maybe. Maybe not. We all roll the dice with our diet in the end.
Almost 9 years into it and I’ve yet to suffer anything (yes, I’ve been tested for everything under the sun) from this particular moral conviction. By the way, yes, for many people it is a moral choice. I’m confused why you seem so hostile to this. I have made a choice based on my assessment of the situation and now I hope to find a way to live out that choice with health and dignity. I’d like to help others making a similar choice do the same. Thus, the post.
I made no claim that vegan diets are right for everyone. I made no claim to have any scientific truth that veganism is always and everywhere the optimal health choice for human beings. My suggestions above will grow and change as I learn more about the world and my place in it. I may or may not post my newfound understanding as time goes on because, in the end, this is not a blog about veganism and frankly too much discussion of diet bores the hell out of people.
I appreciate your desire to seek out ways to avoid health risks from plastics as well as your obviously strong commitment to helping people find a healthy way to live.
Enjoy your life! I will as well.
My best,
Eric
Eric, please keep up the posts on veganism. I actually came across this blog the first time searching “chinese medicine veganism” or something like that and have since continued to check back here at least once a week.
While we can argue about whether or not veganism is detrimental or beneficial to ones health can we really argue about the fact that the morgue down at the hospital is full of people who’s excessive consumption of meat and dairy played a strong factor in their health problems. Can we say the same about peoples excessive consumption of vegetables? Consider “The China Study”.
As to the offense at the thought of a moral choice, consider that the Dao De Jing is not simply the Dao Jing and in the most ancient copies found, the De Jing comes before the Dao. And while the section regarding Dao says it can be exploited for both good and evil, the section regarding De are absent of this suggestion. Regarding this, Mengzi said De was the source of producing “flood-like qi”.
(vegan)food for thought that I found on another blog,
“Energies and Consumption
The physical human body is like a shell for the energetic body. Let’s take the body to be a cup that contains some water (fairly average paced water molecules i.e. having an average amount of energy).
Now lets add some hot water to that cup. The energy from the hot water transfers and affects the less energetic water molecules already within the cup. It all slowly equilibriates at a slightly higher energy level (faster moving molecules or slightly warmer water). This is pretty straight forward science and common sense.
Now everything that we eat has an energetic makeup and i’m not talking calories. i’m talking about the energetic makeup of an animal verses the energetic makeup of a plant. One has animalistic desires. The other does not. Surely it is fairly clear to see that should you ingest the animal then your energies will be affected by that which you have just “poured” into your human body/cup. And now your body must “equilibriate” with the energies of the animal that you have just ingested.
And ofcourse as your energy rebalances to encompass that of the animal’s, then your behaviour will have some of that of the animals.
There is a lot that can be said for “you are what you eat”.
Of course there are many factors involved in the larger picture, such as self-control, quantity, frequency etc. However, the only thing i wanted to put out there was the understanding. As many people think of food as purely nutritional on a physical level, but unfortunately forget that the energy makeup of food does not soley work at a calorific level.
Peace n love to all”
Louis,
Thanks for your response. I do agree that it is instructive to look at the fact that food-related illness (at least in the Western world) is most often caused by too much meat/cheese/etc and not too little. Of course, the negative results of one extreme does not justify swinging to another – some would say.
I know folks who consider themselves omnivores who eat very little meat/cheese/etc. They will consume a little fish once a month or so, for example. These people are all but vegan and I think folks like my critic here would be ok with their diet for the most part.
But to some extent, there is no way you can ever satisfy a person who feels very strongly that there is such a thing as an “optimal diet.” Personally, I don’t look to science to tell me how to eat. I look to what worked and what didn’t for my family, what works and doesn’t for my friends, the wisdom of those who have gone before me and the good old fashioned wisdom of my own body. Whatever diet comes from that I judge against my own convictions about various issues (organic vs non-organic, vegan vs. not vegan, etc) and try it out. Then tweak to fit, and repeat.
I guess that just doesn’t work for some people. :)
Thanks a lot for the quote.
Eric
“the negative results of one extreme does not justify swinging to another – some would say.”
I agree, but I wasn’t making my point clearly.
I personally see a good hearty vegan diet (informed by chinese medical principles) as a stable “middle path” so to speak. Emphasis on the consumption of animal foods is one extreme of an imbalance, as the vegan raw food diet is the other extreme (upon which i think the run of the mill chinese medical critiques of veganism actually make more sense).
Aside from the raw food issue, the generic young vegan, at least in my experience, eats way way too much stuff like pasta, bread, processed soy (the boca-burger diet, haha), processed food etc. which you addressed in the post. As well, we can see from the intensely anger driven sub-genre of “hardcore” vegan straightedge music (and how many of those kids end up super depressed after anger burnout, eating meat and doing heroin – at least in my experience) that there are emotional effects intertwined with ones motivations to adopt a vegan diet that must be considered.
One should employ morals to guard both what enters and exits his mouth.
I wanted to say something more about my last comments, in part cause i may have come across a bit harsh (which i didn’t mean to) but moreso because I think this is really important for a lot of young folks who get into veganism through the “hardcore” scene (many do). and how (in my experience of this it is true) a disproportionate number of them end up HARD drug addicts. no joke. many smart and good kids are drawn to the counter-culture because they are sincerely troubled by the disharmony of the modern world but the music and message very much encourages that you fill yourself with such misanthropic anger and rage that you’ll lash out at society and civilization violently, often even encouraging you to kill and kidnap or assassinate “animal abusers”. now im not really worried about these kids becoming “terrorists” so much as im worried about them. i mean cultivating that kind of anger will eat you up inside and seriously counter the positive effects of a change in diet and worldview. surely, anyone with a conscience will be deeply troubled at the witness of cruelty to animals, possibly driven to do something about it. what im saying is that vegans need to be careful that when we reflect on our motivations we should be filled and driven with a positive sense of cultivating love and compassion, not anger and rage.
Thanks for your response. I do agree that it is instructive to look at the fact that food-related illness (at least in the Western world) is most often caused by too much meat/cheese/etc and not too little. Of course, the negative results of one extreme does not justify swinging to another – some would say.
I have a raw foods book called rawsome written by a practitioiner of raw foods veganism,eastern medicine, and whi also I believe a licensed herbalist. She reacted on the issue of “cold slant” or the spleen issue with an emphasis on yang vegetables and fruits and an emphasis on “warming” herbs and seasonings. She also mentions the point that raw does not mean “absolutely unwarmed” but that foods were not to be cooked to a certain temperarture (which varies to practitioiners of raw foodists I think.) which would cause the active enzymes to break down. I have heard it said from a friend who practices a macrobiotic diet more consciously that one writer of macrobiotics said the same “cooking” would happen through the digestive process. This didn’t in turn answer my questions fully but made more questions especially in this vein…”If the body through the “fiering process” of digestion wastes certain amounts of vitamin content would it not seem to make sense that cooking before this digestion process was enacted would make an even more hefty vitamin absorption loss?”
Thank you and God bless. Enjoying your writings Dillon Broxson. Peace.
so many typos in last post. sorry. :)
Hi Eric,
I found your explanation helpful and was able to pass it on to someone who could benefit from it.
I wish to comment that protein is very easily
obtained by vegans and that B12 is not only lacking in vegan and veg diets but in meat diets. Here is a very good explanation about B12 and some other health issues regarding veganism by Dr Neil Barnard from Physicians Committee for Responsible Medicine. Part 1 of 5.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PRRYZ1Ffgko
Here is the complete podcast interview of Dr Neil Barnard about all the great benefits of adopting a plant based diet. It also focuses also on how one can reverse diabetes Type II by adopting a plant based vegan diet. You just click on this, http://www.abc.net.au/classic/throsby/ then go down to Wednesday Dec 3rd at 10.05am Dr. Neal Barnard, then click on one of 3 choices of Real Player | Windows Media | mp3 download .
I love Chinese food! I’m fortunate to have vegan friendly Chinese restaurants all around me, so I never have to go without. I’ve also become quite the cook – if I do say so myself. :)
Great post. Thanks for sharing your perspective. I was happy to come across your blog after doing a simple search for vegan + qigong, in hopes that I wasn’t alone in my whole grain vegan approach to a life enhanced by practicing qigong.
I will have to admit, though, that reading about the strong nutrition opinions that fellow vegetarians have encountered in their process of studying TCM in an institution is leading me to more heavily consider practicing and furthering my knowledge of herbalism, qigong, etc in a personal outlet (reading books, etc) rather than eventually pursuing a school.
thanks again for the vegan food for thought
Eric,
I found this site by googleing…”Balanced Vegan Diet”. I’m 54 years old, and have been raised eating meat. I was raised on a cattle ranch in Nebraska……you get the picture.
I have two friends that are Vegans. I have always battled overweight. I have been fairly slender all the way to 70 lbs overweight.
I know a ton of stuff about nutrition and health, but have been inconsistent. I’ve been on a fairly rigorous supplement program since the 80’s. I take just about every Shaklee supplement one can take, to the tune of over $5000 a year between my wife and I. (she is not overweight)
I have been inspired by my Vegan friends, and have been converting to vegan for about 3 weeks. I have also purchased a good juicer, and have been juicing for a couple of weeks. My diet, for warm foods have largely been consisting of potatoes and Basmati Rice. I will stir fry these in Olive Oil along with green veggies and herbs.
My wife suggested that I may by spiking my blood sugar with all the rice and potatoes, and may not be getting enough protein. I am losing weight nicely, but that isn’t my main goal, it is to be optimum healthy, the weight will take care of it’self. I don’t, in my attempt to be healthy, end up screwing up my blood sugar.
One of my vegan friends suggested a book called “The China Study”, which I’m about to go purchase. Until I get this book read, I need some simple advise about what I can eat in the mean time, and keep enough protein in me to stay balanced. I’m looking up “qigong”, I’m brand new to veganism and not even familiar with the term.
I can eventually add new things to my diet, but I need “simple” for now. I am eating more black beans with my basmati rice, as I understand that this makes a complete protein.
Thank You,
Monte
Hey Eric,
I have never logged on to your website before but I have found it really interesting! How do you have time to do this?!?! :)
Anyway, I appreciated reading the discussion about veganism and Chinese medicine. I will now share my opinion because I would rather do this than study for clinic entrance exam.
I think you gave awesome suggestions for eating vegan. I however, cannot be vegan at this point in my life and made myself very very sick by doing so. Actually, I wasn’t just vegan I was a Raw foodie. after a few years of vegansim (only 4 on the raw diet) I was battling depression. I can’t blame all of this on the diet, some of it was spiritual, but I do feel that much of it was because of deficiency. of both nutrients and protein of which I could not seem to make up for with nuts, seeds, copious amounts of veggies, superfoods and wheat grass etc…
Later on, amidst this horrible depression I very suddenly developed ulcerative colitis. I won’t get into all of the nitty gritty details of that but it is safe to say that I might never have gotten well again if I did not start eating animal foods again. I couldn’t get my hemoglobin up past 10 and even now it hovers between 9 and 11. My immune system began to function better once I had adequate protein and my period returned after a year without it.
It was a VERY hard choice for me to start eating meat again however I don’t regret it at all. It was in high school that I became vegetarian after watching Oprah when she was doing that whole expose on the beef industry. I was disgusted by what I found out. And later, while studying Environmental Studies at Lewis and Clark, I learned about the environmental impacts of meat. I was PASSIONATE about vegetarianism. I was probably a huge brat to my family as well! however during my sophmore year I veered from this a little bit. I spent a semester in East AFrica and lived amongst tribes who subsisted almost entirely on meat, fat, milk and blood. I had to watch goats be slaughtered and I even went hunting with a Hadza man (the Hadza are one of the last remaining hunter/gatherer tribes in the world) in northern Tanzania. watching animals die was not easy for me because i have NEVER been around this. but it COMPLETELY changed me. For the first time ever, I really saw and understood the circle of life. and saw that eating meat was actually quite a natural thing for humans to do. And that wtihout death, there is no life.
After Africa I was still veg/vegan for years, because I felt that since things in America are so vastly different than in Tanzania that there was really no comparison to eating meat here. But now I know that there are sustainable ways to obtain meat and that for many people it is necessary for their health, including me.
I know that you are not judgmental to those who eat meat, so I am not so much defending myself as just sharing a very life-altering experience with you. It is hard for me to feel that eating meat is wrong, or that it demonstrates a lower consciousness etc…. But I appreciate what you said about it and am glad that the diet works for you. And I’m glad to know that you would recommend raw milk and eggs to your deficient patients (especially the female ones! Its hard to bleed for a week every month!!:))
anywho, thats my story and I’m stickin to it.
:)
Hey there,
Thanks for your comment! Come back again and comment sometime! :) I don’t find time to do this as much lately, but it was a labor of love in my first couple of years. Now, I’m starting to find time for it again. It should be around a while, as I get more time after school is done. Anyway!
Thanks for your story – it’s always good to hear how people have changed their life by altering their diet. What’s interesting is how many people I’ve known personally who had similar complexes of problems and had them HEALED by a vegan diet! Haha! Just goes to show, from the perspective of health, there’s no right way for everyone.
I’m reluctant to take issue with anything you’ve written, as it’s such a nice comment, but I do feel I want to say something brief. While I’ll agree that many cultures around the world, and most cultures in history, have eaten animal products as part of their diet, I worry about the use of the word “natural” to describe this practice.
Let me explain. I’m taking issue with the normative content of the word “natural.” “Natural,” particularly in our field, means “normal,” and to some extent “good.” That word has been used to justify a number of practices that I am opposed to, and I’m pretty sure you’re opposed to as well. I won’t name them here because I don’t want to give the impression that I feel that those reprehensible things are equal to eating meat! I absolutely do not. But, I do believe that as our march of history goes on, we can look back at some of the things we used to do and say, “Hey, that wasn’t so great even though everyone thought it was normal.” While I could never advocate that everyone be forced not to eat meat, and I do recognize that there is a subset of people (though I’m not sure it would be a huge subset) who thrive more readily on animal products, I also believe that NOT eating meat/animal products is as viable, natural and good a way to live a human life as any other way. Y’know what I mean?
Thanks again for your kind comment and sharing your story.
Eric
Eric
Sarah,
As we discussed I get an email every time someone comments on this post. But I am very excited to hear more about your experiences, and hope we can find time to do so. I can also recommend some interesting new books and ideas that I’ve encountered regarding indigenous hunting practices, as well as permaculture phenomena.
Ok, just one more thing I have to share. Sorry Dr. Stickely, I know you get an email every time someone posts a comment here, but since I was supposed to have an appt with you on our intern shift tonight and the front desk screwed up, I have to bug you somehow. :)
Anyway, I was thinking about what you said Eric, regarding the positive changes people have experienced when they went on a vegan diet. It reminded me of the number one most powerful lesson that I took from my year at the Institute for Integrative Nutrition in Manhattan. The lesson is that the diet that works for you now might not in 5, 10 or 20 years and that we must be receptive to the signs that our bodies send us which let us know if our diet is working.
the founder of IIN was macrobiotic for 15 years and was a disciple of Mitchio Kuchi (sp??). He lived at the ashram with him and was a cook and student. One day, he found himself craving meat so badly that he would sneak to McDonalds and scarf burgers in secret. Obviously, this is the worst possible way to consume meat but his whole point was that his body was changing and that his needs were changing and when he started listening to them his health improved.
I met tons of different people while at IIN. some were on the raw diet, some vegan, some veg, some Atkins, some Zone diet, some
on the paleolithic diet. It was cool to see how people were discovering what worked for them. Some had recently eliminated meat and were thriving, some had finally added it back in after years without it. And our teacher loved to see us debate each other over which diet was “correct”. his whole point was, there is no such thing as the perfect diet.
So just thought I would share that. It was really a profound lesson for me because i used to have somewhat of an eating disorder and my education at IIN really helped me free myself from that. I became a lot kinder to myself regarding food
ok thats all.
vegans are great. meat eaters are great. its all good.
oh, and Eric, i totally agree that the word “natural” is a kind of elusive term which really holds no value when describing things of this nature. I mean, even the most synthetic substances come from nature so where do you draw the line between natural and unnatural. you know what i mean….
Hi Eric!
You said “Stir frying, baking and slow cooking will all impart a Stomach-sparing warmth to your food that can help bring balance to a vegan diet.”. Is it important how much is cooked the food? How slow? I heard some opinions that if a food is cooked over 40 Celsius degrees, then there is no live in it. It looks like not a good Qi energy, but I am not specialist in anything chinese, so it was just the best comparison I have found. The explanation relates to some molecular structure issues (the molecules in that over cooked food become opposed, I mean they turn around ad oppose themselves as position to the natural flow of energy inside the material out of which that food is composed from). This is what a chemist engineer found out, a guy which is a complete vegan and promote such diet.
Love reading these very informative posts as I love Chinese food and have been studying Qigong for many years now.
I am a yoga instructor and have been vegan for 18 years now. I became vegan as a result of studying nutrition. I began studying nutrition after attending a macrobiotic conference with a friend (I was not macrobiotic) and sat at a table for a meal with numerous people who were sharing stories of overcoming cancer, diabetes, and heart disease by simply changing their diets. It blew my mind so I went to the library and studied up and that, along with my love for animals, led me to become vegetarian and eventually vegan. I was 20 yrs old then. I have been extremely healthy ever since. I used to get the common cold at every change of season but now it’s more like once every few years (and only if I get really over-stressed and eat a lot of junk food at the same time). I am now 38 and have decided to try to get pregnant and have had no luck yet. I have seen a couple CTM practitioners (because I have such a profound respect for much of the wisdom of the East, such as in Buddhism and dislike of Western medicine’s that seems to consist of nothing but harsh drugs with horrific side effects) and nearly rejected the entire field because of their disrespect and lack of understanding of the vegetarian diet. I had one acupuncturist tell me that my blood “must” be unhealthy simply because I am vegan and if I don’t eat meat I will never be truly healthy—this after I told her I have very iron rich blood and have been full of energy and have a very strong immune system as a vegan. Your website has restored my faith in the possibility that I might find a CTM practitioner that I can work with.
Brenda,
I’m sorry to hear about your experience – how frustrating! I think just asking a potential practitioner up front about their orientation towards veganism/vegetarianism is a possible way to find a practitioner you can work with. Or, just come to Portland! Best of luck – come back here and let us know what you end up finding (if anything).
Eric