I thank you all for your patience as I adjust to my workload. The reality of the situation is that I’m going to have to post what I can, when I can. But, with the onset of clinic I find myself coming up with many new thoughts to share – I’ll do my best to get them up in a timely fashion. Look also for the return of the podcast this week. I know you’ve missed me. :)
Anyway, in a fantastic lecture by Dr. Arnaud Versluys this weekend, I was reinspired to consider a very real problem in Chinese herbal medicine. We use herbs that travel long distances, are sometimes beset with chemical and heavy metal toxicity, are sometimes banned by ill-informed government agencies and some of which are becoming rare and, thus, expensive. Given that I am very serious about a rigorously authentic Shang Han Lun
The particular herb that came up in discussion about this issue was Xi Xin – Asarum – Wild Ginger. I love this herb. It’s used in a couple of indispensible formulas, perhaps most importantly in Dang Gui Si Ni Tang. Most herbalists agree that there’s simply no substitute for Xi Xin, but I’ve seen or heard of people try to replace it with Wu Tou, Yu Jin, Sheng Jiang + Mai Men Dong (?!) and other interesting combinations. Most of these same herbalists agree that it’s simply not the same without Xi Xin.
The ban on Xi Xin for practitioners is ridiculous to the extreme and I’m not going to discuss that here. What I would like to hear people discuss is how they make substitutions in these cases. When an herb you need isn’t around, what do you do? What herbs have you had to learn to live without? I understand that UK herbalists are quite restricted in what they can prescribe – how have my UK readers dealt with this problem? Even when a governmental agency isn’t busy interfering, we sometimes lose herbs. Consider Xi Jiao, rhino horn. Consider the precarious state of Ren Shen, ginseng.
There are a couple of associated questions that come up when one considers this issue. One is – should we simply learn to work with fewer, simpler herbs? Dr. Versluys is known to say that he thinks he could do a fair job of treating patients with only 10 herbs – a set of cooling herbs in each of five flavors and a corresponding set of warming herbs. If you know formula science and architecture, such artistry is certainly possible. Is this the standard towards which we should strive? It seems far superior to the never ending quest for the “perfect herb for cancer” or memorizing five hundred herbs, over half of which are specialized for particular symptoms.
Taking this a little bit farther, we should consider the wisdom of relying on herb sources that can only be accessed by air shipments from another continent. Given peak oil, given the unstable political nature of our planet, given the environmental crisis we find ourselves in… should we at least consider the possibility that we may need to rely on local sources for our herbs at some point in the future?
My friend said an interesting thing to me today. In the course of discussing this various issue he said, “To be true Classical Chinese herbalists, we should use the herbs we find around us.” I didn’t question him any farther on this issue, but I think he’s right from some perspectives. Learning the Chinese herbs and formula science so deeply that it is second nature allows us to look at all plants, animals and minerals with the eyes of a Classical Chinese herbalist. Then it seems at least possible that we could, if necessary, find other materials that meet the needs of our patients.
I’d be interested to hear your thoughts on this rambling post. Doubtless there are many opinions out there – share them here on Deepest Health by responding in the comments. No registration is necessary and you can even post anonymously if you are respectful.
Thanks for reading,
Eric
Tags: versluys, formulas, nature, Chinese herbs, environment, flavors
{ 21 comments… read them below or add one }
Well, due to my competitive nature I rarely turn down a well thrown gauntlet, so naturally I like what Arnaud says. However, just like in things closer to food grade (cigars, wine, etc)the location the herbs came from makes a humongous difference. I seem to remember being told a story about no less than Dr. John HF Shen laughing a group off the floor who were pushing American grown Chinese herbs.
So I’m torn, but I’ll do what I have to. I tried to make DGSNT recently. I had to make an unbelievable amount of substitutions, so I have no idea if I got the maximum effect from it.
I’m not sure if this is the right time to ask of you… Have you ever featured here about those chinese green tea yet? I am very interested on that matter if they really work for weight loss. Anyway, this is indeed a very interesting post about chinese herbs and having them as substitute for many things and I like it the way you posted this long and natural. I used to really blog a lot but in a more technical side and I really enjoyed reading this post of yours today. Thank you for the information.
I have to say I’ve been pondering this issue a lot quite recently. While taking walks in the woods this summer I became obsessed with identifying local plants and using them to treat ailments I had. There is something extremely satisfying about building a relationsship with the little plantain plant growing outside my apartment building. I feel like I can have a real relationship with her, versus the dried bags of herbs I work with in chinese herbs class.
I have experienced the power of Classical Chinese herbal formulas and am curious to see what happens now that more and more western herbalists are being trained in Chinese medicine. We already see works attempting to classify western herbs in terms of the Si Qi Wu Wei. It definitely seems that a shift must take place due to all the factors you highlighted above. The question I have is, “What will it take for us to achieve in the west what it took thousands of years to achieve in China?” The skill of their formula craftsmanship is quite impressive to say the least.
Hi Eric,
I like the idea of using local herbs as much as possible in my ideal practice. I firmly believe that the low quality herbs we import from China are a big reason clinical results have diminished in Chinese medicine over the years (and many other factors as well).
It is true that growing an herb in a different location will alter the delicate chemical balance within the plant, and thus can make it have different therapeutic actions from a Western persepective. From a Chinese perspective, the qi and flavor of the herb is what is most important to look at. I believe that these could change as well. If the flavor and qi is of primary importance, well then we do not need to use a specific herb, is what I think Dr. Versluys is implying. Theoretically, we just need one yin and one yang herb for each of the five elements to treat anything. I am not so sure that this would work so well in practice. I have not heard of any docs that are bold enought to try this though, so I can’t say for sure.
Having said all that, I do think it is possible to use local herbs to substitute for Chinese herbs if need be for whatever reason in the future. It is a matter of looking at Western herbs through a Chinese medicine lens to understand and classify them according to the theory laid out in the classics. It is a matter of organoleptically testing herbs and experimenting with them in clinic and labs to compile the information necessary to be able to use them safely and effectively in a Chinese herbal practice.
This is a huge concern for me, and most likely, my thesis is going to be written on an aspect of this problem.
Perhaps I’m naive, but I feel like we’ve got to start at the beginning here – and start classifying our local herbs within the Chinese medicine framework. We’ve also got to take a look at more animal and mineral herbs that are native to this area. Those are sorely missing from Western herbalism.
Dr. Zhang Haosheng talks about the fact that a “sour” herb doesn’t necessarily taste sour, but is classified as such because it follows the pathway that we have defined for ’sour.’ There are compendiums of Western herbs that spell out their functions for us, and we’ve also got a fair amount of biomedical information on many of them. I believe that much of this information can be used to start classifying these herbs and as time goes on, we will know more and more about what they do under the Chinese med. system. Thomas Avery Garran also wrote: Western Herbs according to Traditional Chinese Medicine: A Practitioner’s Guide, which is very helpful for this, and I’m sure there are other books out there that I haven’t found yet.
I still have a long way to go in school, but I haven’t been thinking about substituting Western herbs for Chinese herbs in formulas. That seems like trying to shove a round peg into a square hole to me. I’ve been thinking about creating formulas based on what grows around me, and how those herbs interact with each other. We know a little something about formula design – it seems – so why can’t we pick an Emperor herb with an entourage that comes from the same land that he does?
I also think that it’s important to realize that herbs grown in greenhouses and monocropped fields are not the same as the herbs that were once collected in the wild. A patch of chamomile that was given all of the water and nutrients that it needed from day one will certainly have different properties than a patch of chamomile that beat the odds by growing on a cliff at altitude without water. The latter had to struggle for it’s life and I believe that infuses it with a much more powerful energy.
I think it’s unethical to be shipping Chinese herbs to this country for growing when we have such a treasure house all around us. Getting to know those herbs will take time though, and it’s not going to be completed in our generation. I’m willing to do the work and keep good records though, and I’m sure that a lot of practitioners here are too!
Hi Bex,
Just wanted to let you know that you can contact me if you would like more resources to help you out with your thesis if you decide to do something with classifying Western herbs from a CM perspective. Several books are available on this in our bookstore and library as well as other resources. I do like the idea of classifying minerals and gemstones and such in terms of 5 element theory, but I think animals would be a touchy subject. Firstly, do we want to subject animals to testing, for ethical reasons? We would have to do this in a conscious way to do no harm, or else we would have big time bad publicity from the public. I have met many people that look at me funny when I say I study Chinese medicine because they associate our medicine with using endangered species and strange animal/insect parts. The other problem with using animals is that we don’t really have many left! Think of how many species go extinct evryday- lots. The few animals we have left in America are mostly domesticated since we have killed most of our wildlife through hunting for food and to protect and ensure survival of the human race. Domesticated animals live very short lives and are unhealthy, so do we really want to use these as medicines? Wild animals are too few and too precious to sacrifice in the name of experimenting with for the sake of medicine. Just my thoughts on that.
Also, it is not true that the plant that has been deprived of nourishment will be more “powerful” than its healthy counterpart. With some plants, or for certain purposes this can be true, but generally speaking, the well nourished plant is going to be the more powerful medicine because it has absorbed, and thus contains, a higher concentration of the elements within it. It is true you can deprive some plants of nutrients to stress them at the end of the grow cycle to concentrate the nutrients and use them all up, but if you did this from day 1 the plant will most likely not survive through its whole life cycle because it won’t have the right energetic balance to sustain its own life if it is not nourished by these invisible forces of the liu qi.
Of course, these are only a couple of many, many issues that must be factored in when considering classifying something in terms of Chinese medicine. It is a much more complicated and bigger task than I wish.
Good luck!
Hey Delli –
Resources sound awesome, so I’m sure I’ll take you up on that offer. As far as animal herbs, I was thinking more along the lines of dilong and and biechong. We have earthworms and cockroaches here that could be farmed in a similar manner to those in China. Maybe that’s still unethical, I don’t know, but I use those herbs when they come from China, so I would prefer to use them if they came from the states. I know their actions are going to be different.
I don’t support the use of endangered species for medicines and I don’t agree with the use of deer antler and those types of things, because I think that the gathering of that “herb” is unethical and cruel. I do think we have plenty of insects, shells and other animal products that could be put to use from this area, rather than paying for someone to gather them from China.
As far as the wild herb versus the greenhouse herb, I still think that the energy is going to be much different. Do you think that the domestication of animals is all that different from the domestication of herbs? Something is lost in the domesticated buffalo when it is compared to a wild bison. I’ve been near both domesticated and wild deer and there is a lackluster quality in the eyes of domesticated animals.
It’s true that a winter squash grown with nitrogen fertilizers and all the water that it needs will be much larger than one that grows of it’s own accord in the wild, but does that mean that it has more Qi? The wild squash I have tasted are much smaller but have an intense flavor and smell that cannot be found in the garden variety. Domesticated spinach and eggplant are greater in size, but do not have anywhere near the nutritional value of their wild counterparts.
We tend to influence the evolution of those things we domesticate by selecting for desired traits. When business people are put in charge of these endeavors, the desired traits tends towards an increase in the size of the plant. When nature is put in charge, I feel that the plants own power is respected and allowed to blossom and flow in the direction of the plants choosing – which is really what we are talking about when we talk about it’s power, isn’t it?
Goethe said that all plants can be traced back to the archetypal plant, right? So, the only thing that makes them different is that some have decided to put more power in certain areas than others. Isn’t it a huge deal when we decide to selectively breed for an even larger root? Or an even larger blossom? Isn’t that changing the natural choices of the plant?
Anyway, thanks – still trying to figure out the basics over here.
Bex,
I would have to say yes, I do believe the domestication of plants and animals is very different. From an anthroposophical model I would say that animals have mental bodies, emotional bodies, physical bodies, and spiritual bodies. That is why they are more human-like than plants. Plants do not have a mental or emotional body, but can have an impact on an animal/human on any four of those planes of existence simply because they are concentrated carriers of light/spirit. Spirit, as the root of our physical essence, is the path to all healing. Heal the human soul with the plant phyto-nutrients and you can effect consciousness, qi, or physical body.
Plants contain less astral forces than animals, or we could say qi force in Chinese medicine terms. They are rooted in the earth, and not able to move the way we can walk around freely. The level of consciousness between plants animals, and humans is what seperates the three. Plants having little awareness of the environment arond them, or the shortest range. Animals have movement, and so can go further and see more than plants. Animals, are conscious of self and maybe the family or pack it travels in and that environment. Humans have consciousness of not only those of of the plant and animals, but also beyond since we can do and see and know more with human advancements. We can travel to space and fly to the other side of the world in a few hours changes our awareness somehow. It makes it bigger and more complex, I guess.
So, yes I do think that animals have nervous systems that make them more susceptible to injury by mental/emotional constraint that comes with domestication. I think that it is more harmful than good. Human interaction can be beneficial to animals when they are pets and we love them, but without the love, animals that fear humans will not produce quality products is my belief.
I wasn’t thinking specifically of greenhouses, but they still are “outdoors” and use sunlight at least. Cultivation is necessary to save many species or produce them in great enough quantity for medicinal or commercial uses. Essential oils are distilled on farms in many cases. These can be of as good or better than wildcrafted varieties of the same species. It is more a question of what is the intention of the farmer, when it comes to plants. The plants that are treated with the most love, care, respect along with the right growing techniques will be superior to the wildcrafted in many cases. Plants can absorb our thoughts and intentions, but I don’t think they feel or think. It is more like they just react to whatever energy we give them. If it is bad qi, the plant will suffer, but the right grower can provide a special kind of love and qi to the plant that it might not get if left in the wild.
I do no believe in the use of genetically modified species of plants at all either. I once argued with my ethnobotany teacher in my undergrad about that issue. I asked him if it had negative consequences and he denied it. I think the evidence is sufficient enough now that he might change his mind if I asked him again today! Yes, and promoting endangered species would probably not be good for your practice. I too, agree this is why seeking local or new sources and testing various “herbs” could be important in the future. If the herbs from the classics are one day not available, well a new system with other herbs would be a great backup plan at the very least. Sounds crazy, but who knows what the future of Chinese medicine might bring?
Send me an email sometime and we can chat more and I will give you some resources whenever you need them.
Take care,
Delli
all i know is, i’ve replaced Ren Shen with Xi Yang Shen (the good organic stuff from BC) with fantastic results. this is interesting because Xi Yang Shen is known to be quite a bit cooler than Ren Shen, but still does the trick marvelously (at least in Sheng Mai San).
I’ve been pondering this issue since I read the article. On the one hand, I think there is something to be said for the purity. On the other hand, like buying local food, should we buy the local herbs? Certainly I buy my herbal products that are made in the US. My clients feel better about this. Do I use local herbs? Technically as an LAc (not an ND) I can only make recommendations based on Chinese Dietary theory (I believe that is the licensing language in my state). Because of that, I am hesitant to step outside the Chinese pharmacopia.
I don’t believe that there is such thing as perfect substitution. It would be like cooking and saying “ok I’m going to replace basil with oregano because they’re both kind of bitter.” It’s a different result. Taking the example Brandon gave, that particular permutation of Sheng Mai San (swapping Xi Yang Shen in for Ren Shen) has a different function than the original. The primary difference is that Xi Yang Shen has a bit of an astringeint function via the interesting capacity to protect the Heart while tonifying (sort of lke Wu Wei Zi’s effect on the Lungs). So we out in Hammer/Shen land, crazy guys that we are, use that one for treating things like Heart Shock and emotional trauma. I would also say its probably worth noting that Xi Yang Shen doesn’t have nearly the Fluid generating effect nor the broad spectrum of tonification that Ren Shen does. It also plays a lot better with patients who have Gu toxin infestations than Ren Shen does.
So anyway, I don’t think perfect substitution exists.
Eric,
This is a quite an issue we are facing, but I don’t think this is a REAL issue for a good herbalist. But this is an issue for us as practitioners. If we continue to loose herbs because the government thinks something bad will happen isn’t fair. Thousands of people die yearly from pharmaceuticals and no one cares. An herb comes up with a trace element that could kill you if you decocted 20 pounds of it and drank it all at once is banned on the spot.
A good herbalist can survive these problems. There are substitutions and different formulations. Some may not be the best, but still very effective. Tru Chinese Medicine is one adaptive to the situation and you just can’t grow many chinese herbs here in the West. There are books and resources to show you western herbs in Chinese tastes and temps, its just going to take some time to learn to use them in a chinese way.
Don’t get heart vexation over the whole thing, just let things come and pass as they will, but fight for right as a chinese herbalist to your government
I have heard a lot about Chinese medicine a lot but this is first time I’m reading something related to it and I found this interesting.
But are these local species available in the market?
This is a very interesting subject and discussion. I find Chinese medicine fascinating, but know very little about it. I have heard so many good things from folks who have tried it. Unfortunately it isn’t available in the small town we live in. Would love to learn more about it, so I will come back here.
Hi Bonnie,
I would argue it because of the power of the Chinese theory that we CAN step outside the traditionally used Chinese herbs and foods stated in classics and modern Chinese medical books. If we did not have a theory to guide us, well, then it would be hard to try and classify Western herbs, foods, minerals, animals, etc. If we have a strong knowledge of the theory and an understanding as to how the ancient sages who created this medicine thought, I think it should be possible to apply this theory to any medicinal substance- food, herb, gemstone, essential oil, animal, etc. Afterall, I believe yin/yang and five element theory can be applied to any situation or living entity. Therefore, the nature and qi of herbs, which can be also thought of in terms of yin/yang and the five phase movements (elements), should also be able to be classified with this theory. The real problem is trying to figure how to do this while being in alignment with how the ancient sages did this. Assuming we are less cultivated than the sages of ancient China, how do we do this accurately is the question? Books are available on many medicinal substances that attempt to do this, but many are contradictory to one another, or at least not so complete. I think it will just take a couple generations of good doctors working together to compile data and come to a consensus on what is generally accepted as to how these principles apply to the categorizing of medicinal substances found outside the Chinese medicine texts.
So my question for you Bonnie- is it really outside the scope of Chinese medicine if we are still thinking in terms of Chinese theory even though we are talking about a substance not talked about anywhere in the classics? I am under the impression this is perfectly legal, but please let me know if it is not. Is this something that would be regulated depending on the state or country you practice in? I would think having a license gives us permission to think in this way, but please let me know if I am wrong. I would be very saddened to hear that is not legal to do for some chinese medicine practitioners out there somewhere.
Hi Delli,
Yes. That is my understanding. The Department of Health does their best to ignore herbal recommendations but one of my friends spent some time talking to them about the scope of practice. The Department is very divided on how to regulate acupuncturists giving out herbs. Many on the board at this point in time didn’t want us to do it at all. This was about five years ago. The gist was: “Don’t talk about doing herbs. We don’t like to think about that because we don’t read the law the same way you are.”
Given that interpretation, I think Washington would make the argument that even Chinese herbal formulas (the classics) could be considered outside the scope of my practice. I’m not willing to stake my livelihood on a point of theory!
Given that IN THEORY and in writing if not in actual practice, I would argue that you are right. On the other hand, I’m not in practice to make a point but to heal and I really don’t want to loose my license.
There are a number of states who do require that you have both the herbal exam as well as the acupuncture exam. I wouldn’t mind if Washington became one of them. There are a lot of irresponsible practitioners out there and herbs are powerful in ways I don’t think these people appreciate.
And yes, Washington does have one practitioner who is suspended for practicing outside the scope of practice. I have not heard the outcome yet but had to do with our listening portion of the medicine (our side claim) or “counseling” (the DOH claim) and where the line falls. DOH is really trying to push us into being little technicians but I am happy to say that Washington at least has a good lobby.
Hi Bonnie,
Thank you for the information! It is very disheartening to be reminded how our practice of an ancient art and science with thousands of years of experience using herbs is regulated by Western thinking minds that oversee and govern the laws and scope of practice within Chinese medicine. This is a real issue that reminds me that we must continually make sure we fight for our rights as practitioners of “alternative” medicine. However, we must be prudent as to when and how we voice our opinions to make sure we remain in good standing with these governing organizations. Many of the most difficult issues in practicing classical Chinese medicine in the modern day seem to come down to the interface of Western vs. Chinese way of thinking. Much becomes murky when we try and combine the two, but I think this is even more reason why we must continue to integrate the two medicines and ways of thinking in order to bridge the gap. That is clearly one of the missions of our program at NCNM. While we are a classical program, it could not be more apparent that integration with Western medicine does align with our program considering we have classes called integrative anatomy, physiology, and biochemistry, integrative nutrition, etc. Although, maybe we could argue that these classes were not added because the founder of the program thought we should have them, but because these governing bodies “force” us to have them in order for the school to be accredited. This shows how influenced we really are by the Western mindset as Chinese medicine practitioners. Although, if we are practicing in the Western world, then somehow this makes sense despite the problems that can arise. To me, this means it is imperative that we figure out ways to integrate Western thinking and Eastern thinking in a way that it will become a powerful synergy rather than a roadblock to healing patients.
Well, I’m not sure how to weigh in on all of this. The simplest way might be to say that if it is not necessary for me to use other than the herbs referred to in the classics – then I won’t. I don’t feel that the reasons for doing so are compelling enough to substantiate the risks. But, I’m inherently conservative that way.
The crucial key, in my opinion, is this : you must first understand classical ways of thinking so well that they are second nature. I feel that this would probably take at least a couple decades of dedicated research and self-cultivation. If, then, one feels one can apprehend the principles well enough to classify other substances – by all means, begin experimentation. But, don’t think that a three or four year program and a few years of Qigong qualify one to do what the ancient sages did. Further, I worry about people undertaking something like this “just to do it” or in an effort to be novel. I would only take part in something like this if necessity forced my hand (as referred to in the original article).
Eric
Hi Eric,
I agree that using classical formulas is a great idea, and I admire people who stick to those formulas that have been around longest.
On the other hand, I believe the herbalists used those herbs because those were the herbs they had access to and found most useful in their local environment. Had those ancient sages lived in the Pacific Northwest, well they obviously would have done the same classifications with the local herbs here. The principles would not change, and the theory can be applied to any medicinal substance as I mentioned, so why can’t we use the doctrine of signatures and all the symbolism we have learned to get an idea how to use the herbs that grow around us. Many Western herbalists believe the most effective herbs for treating conditions are the ones growing around us.
Plus, quality control and supporting the local economy would be other benefits of either using local herbs or growing Chinese herbs in US. Given what Arnaud has said about the herbs being classified according to the five elements and yin/yang, it makes sense that local herbs could be classified the same way. Plants in North America must follow the same laws and principles of those in China. I think it would be of great benefit to see and understand the plants around us in such a way.
Ideally, I think the best clinical results could be yielded by having a farm near my clinic where I could someday grow, harvest, process my own medicinal herbs for my own practice. Having them fresh, local, therapeutic quality, and with the intention of the practitioner closely instilled in the soul of the plant will most likely yield the best results no matter if you are using Western herbs or Chinese herbs in your practice. That is what my instincts and experience with herbs has me thinking about that subject.
I will let you know how it goes if I ever get it to happen in the future.
Chinese Herbal decoctions have helped my severe eczema in a way that no western herbal medicine could. This led me to wonder why western herbalists do not as often use complex formulas/decoctions, for I was never prescribed by a western herbalist a decoction for my eczema. I began to think that maybe it is because the complex philosophy of chinese herbs, which took centuries to develop, has no counterpart in north america, unless possibly the native american peoples had their own theory of medicine which is now all but lost. I know that the native american decoction known as essiac has helped many people be cured of cancer. My point is that I do believe that formulas/decoctions can be made from western herbs that work just as well as the chinese ones, but that our environment in the U.S. may not liken to the exact same philosophy used in China. I do not fully understand the Chinese herbal philosophy, so I guess I mean to ask whether their philosophy is presented as something universal that can be used in different parts of the world? I know there are stories from old timers about using sassafrass root bark decoctions for skin conditions, but now the authorities say that it has something poisonoius in it. It seems as if modern chemistry can be a hinderance to the experimentation needed to develop a western herbal philosophy. Just throwing some thought out. Thanks great post!
I too know very little about Chinese medicine (aside from the much publicised use of animal body parts, eg. tiger bones, eyes & genitals etc), but I found this a very interesting article.
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