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	<title>Comments on: Classical Chinese medical symbolism:  Wood, Metal and Spring</title>
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	<link>http://deepesthealth.com/2008/classical-chinese-medical-symbolism-wood-metal-and-spring/</link>
	<description>Learning Chinese Medicine and letting it inform all aspects of life</description>
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		<title>By: mitral valve replacement</title>
		<link>http://deepesthealth.com/2008/classical-chinese-medical-symbolism-wood-metal-and-spring/comment-page-1/#comment-1290</link>
		<dc:creator>mitral valve replacement</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 26 Mar 2008 10:39:23 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>I must say both the parts are very well written

Forwarding this link to as many as I can

Good Work 

Keep it up</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I must say both the parts are very well written</p>
<p>Forwarding this link to as many as I can</p>
<p>Good Work </p>
<p>Keep it up</p>
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		<title>By: michael</title>
		<link>http://deepesthealth.com/2008/classical-chinese-medical-symbolism-wood-metal-and-spring/comment-page-1/#comment-1266</link>
		<dc:creator>michael</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 19 Mar 2008 03:54:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://deepesthealth.com/2008/classical-chinese-medical-symbolism-wood-metal-and-spring/#comment-1266</guid>
		<description>Hi Delli,
Eva Wong has written so many great translations and books!  Check out &quot;Cultivating Stillness&quot; and her text called &quot;Taoism&quot;.  The symbol is also in Derek Walter&#039;s book &quot;The Complete Guide to Chinese Astrology&quot; which I&#039;m sure you&#039;ve seen.

I like to put these concepts into historical perspective so that I can grasp our medicine more clearly.  I find that, especially in all of the TCM literature, chronology and sources are thrown out the window.  

For instance, it is fascinating to consider that the Taiji symbol itself most likely was not circulating during the Han dynasty or prior.  Of course, the theory of Yin and Yang and the Wu Xing are attributed to Zhou Yen (350-270bc), and most would agree that prior to him, these theories were not as we understand them to be today.  In the Zhouyi, there is obviously the precursor to all theories of yin and yang in the form of the hexagrams, and some argue that the Yellow river map and the River Lou map (pretty ancient symbols if you ask me) are precursors to the taijji symbol, but this does not seem acurate to me, and the symbol itself is not documented until the early Song dynasty!  (See Zhuxi).  

There are descriptions in some Neo-daoist writings in the Wei dynasty (220-265ad) that imply the image of the taiji; and, the term Taiji (used in the context that the Great Ultimate is the Great Non-being/ Wuji)is first used as well, as (quite interestingly) a counter-response to the Confucian correspondence theories (for instance that the five elements in nature correspond to the human body!).  So, what I&#039;m getting at is that these historical references are complicated.

But, I&#039;ll have to work on our collective book on the Taiji some other day!...

Right now I am still very curious about the difference between the five zang and twelve channels, for, though I can enjoy Ed Neal&#039;s &quot;Great Ultimate&quot; concept of the five elements, historically (during the Han dynasty, when our medicine was emerging as a system of understanding), they were exclusively related to the five specific planets (though the source of these five movements is still under debate), and the twelve channels have been historically related to the twelve houses (stellar constellations), the twelve rivers and the six atmospheric qi.  

The twelve branches, from about the time of the Waring States period were used as a means of measuring the movement of Jupiter through the twelve houses, and to measure the twelve directions.  They as symbols were a later addition to the cycle of 60, and the Ten Stems of course are extremely ancient.  They have been used to describe directionality, the movement of the stars, moon, planets, etc.  Astrology in its Daoist form is quite late, from my perspective; in it&#039;s early form it is fascinatingly not metaphysical or personal (in terms of astrological birth charts, etc.), but more philosophical and scientific.  

However, the five elements and the twelve houses (more specifically in the Neijing, the six conformations and their yin-yang pairs) are much more directly related to the Neijing concepts of the five zang (xiang) and the twelve channels.  The eight extraordinary channels too are also related to the bagua and the eight directions.  This means to me that the inner planets and the outer stars and fixed directions are quite different, and the outer fixed stars seem to be pretty far away, in comparison to the five inner planets.  The fixed directionality of the 8 and the 12 seem very different from the dynamic movement of the 5 (the wu yun, or five wanderers).  

What can this tell us medically, physiologically and academically about the difference between channels and organs?

Sorry for the lengthy comment.  I&#039;d like to hear what you and others have to say about this last question, so I&#039;ll keep quiet for a while.

Thanks!
Michael</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi Delli,<br />
Eva Wong has written so many great translations and books!  Check out &#8220;Cultivating Stillness&#8221; and her text called &#8220;Taoism&#8221;.  The symbol is also in Derek Walter&#8217;s book &#8220;The Complete Guide to Chinese Astrology&#8221; which I&#8217;m sure you&#8217;ve seen.</p>
<p>I like to put these concepts into historical perspective so that I can grasp our medicine more clearly.  I find that, especially in all of the TCM literature, chronology and sources are thrown out the window.  </p>
<p>For instance, it is fascinating to consider that the Taiji symbol itself most likely was not circulating during the Han dynasty or prior.  Of course, the theory of Yin and Yang and the Wu Xing are attributed to Zhou Yen (350-270bc), and most would agree that prior to him, these theories were not as we understand them to be today.  In the Zhouyi, there is obviously the precursor to all theories of yin and yang in the form of the hexagrams, and some argue that the Yellow river map and the River Lou map (pretty ancient symbols if you ask me) are precursors to the taijji symbol, but this does not seem acurate to me, and the symbol itself is not documented until the early Song dynasty!  (See Zhuxi).  </p>
<p>There are descriptions in some Neo-daoist writings in the Wei dynasty (220-265ad) that imply the image of the taiji; and, the term Taiji (used in the context that the Great Ultimate is the Great Non-being/ Wuji)is first used as well, as (quite interestingly) a counter-response to the Confucian correspondence theories (for instance that the five elements in nature correspond to the human body!).  So, what I&#8217;m getting at is that these historical references are complicated.</p>
<p>But, I&#8217;ll have to work on our collective book on the Taiji some other day!&#8230;</p>
<p>Right now I am still very curious about the difference between the five zang and twelve channels, for, though I can enjoy Ed Neal&#8217;s &#8220;Great Ultimate&#8221; concept of the five elements, historically (during the Han dynasty, when our medicine was emerging as a system of understanding), they were exclusively related to the five specific planets (though the source of these five movements is still under debate), and the twelve channels have been historically related to the twelve houses (stellar constellations), the twelve rivers and the six atmospheric qi.  </p>
<p>The twelve branches, from about the time of the Waring States period were used as a means of measuring the movement of Jupiter through the twelve houses, and to measure the twelve directions.  They as symbols were a later addition to the cycle of 60, and the Ten Stems of course are extremely ancient.  They have been used to describe directionality, the movement of the stars, moon, planets, etc.  Astrology in its Daoist form is quite late, from my perspective; in it&#8217;s early form it is fascinatingly not metaphysical or personal (in terms of astrological birth charts, etc.), but more philosophical and scientific.  </p>
<p>However, the five elements and the twelve houses (more specifically in the Neijing, the six conformations and their yin-yang pairs) are much more directly related to the Neijing concepts of the five zang (xiang) and the twelve channels.  The eight extraordinary channels too are also related to the bagua and the eight directions.  This means to me that the inner planets and the outer stars and fixed directions are quite different, and the outer fixed stars seem to be pretty far away, in comparison to the five inner planets.  The fixed directionality of the 8 and the 12 seem very different from the dynamic movement of the 5 (the wu yun, or five wanderers).  </p>
<p>What can this tell us medically, physiologically and academically about the difference between channels and organs?</p>
<p>Sorry for the lengthy comment.  I&#8217;d like to hear what you and others have to say about this last question, so I&#8217;ll keep quiet for a while.</p>
<p>Thanks!<br />
Michael</p>
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		<title>By: Delli</title>
		<link>http://deepesthealth.com/2008/classical-chinese-medical-symbolism-wood-metal-and-spring/comment-page-1/#comment-1264</link>
		<dc:creator>Delli</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 18 Mar 2008 21:12:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://deepesthealth.com/2008/classical-chinese-medical-symbolism-wood-metal-and-spring/#comment-1264</guid>
		<description>Hi Michael,

  Thanks for your comments and questions.  I do not think I have ever seen the original taiji diagram that you speak of, but I would love to take a look at it if you can give me more info where to find it.  The only Eva Wong work I am familiar with is her translation of the Lie Zi, (which happens to be one of my all-time favorite reads)but I would be interested in getting the name of the book in which the diagram appears.

It is true that the taiji represents a whole lot more than just the movement of the Sun.  One of the original meanings of yin is &quot;shady side of a hill&quot; and one of the original meanings of yang is &quot;sunny side of a hill&quot;.  I think we can see an obvious correlation to the Sun and moon here. During the day when the sun is out we consider it yang, and when the sun goes down and the moon is apparent he have the yin night.  This is an infinite cycle just like the taiji.  Lots can be said about the taiji, but I had to control myself and limit what I said since it wasn&#039;t the main topic of the article.  I would have loved to say more about it, but I just wanted to introduce the concept and its origins in lieu of the discussion on Metal and Wood.

 Perhaps someday one of us will write a book on the hidden symbolism of the taiji!  I do want people to realize that the symbol is such a powerful one that it can be used to describe anything in nature.  That is why the theory is applicable in many different ways to Chinese Medicine on a microscopic level, and is not just a way of describing the laws of the macrocosm.  

I was actually just reading a handout from Dr. Edward Neal from 1/2/06 CPD class in which he states, &quot;The circular motion of the Five Movements (Wu Xing) are generated directly from the interactions of Yin and Yang. These movements are found everywhere from the farthest reaches of our Galaxy to our backyard.  The movement of the Six Qi (liu qi) are manifestations of Yin and Yang that exist on our planet because of the fact that our Earth&#039;s axis is tilted 23 degrees in relation to the Sun.  They are responsible for the change of season.&quot; 

 In other words, Yin and Yang exists everywhere in the Universe, while Wu Yun applies to this galaxy, and the Liu Qi specifically go with this planet.  All of these have the same origin- Dao.

Much can be said about the Stems and Branches, but I think this would best be saved for a future article when I have a better grasp on it.  Studying Chinese Astrology will give you a much better understanding of how the Stems and Branches influence us.  It is true that the Stems originally were used to keep track of the 10 day week and the Branches correspond to the 12 months and 12 hour segments of the day.  This was the original counting and calendar system used by the ancient Chinese to keep track of time.  Every hour, day, month, and year have a Stem and Branch combo.  These combos tell us about the energy of the world at that time.  This information is used in Chinese Astrology to create the Ba Zi, or &quot;the pillars of destiny&quot; chart.  I believe this information to be extremely important for clinical purposes.  Part of my goal is to do Chinese Astrology charts for my patients BEFORE I even meet them for the first time.  This can tell us much about a person&#039;s constitution.  I believe Chinese Medical Astrology is a crucial part of the medicine that has been forgotten.  In my opinion, it is also the most challenging part of the medicine to understand, and so maybe that is why it has been disregarded over time.  I have been studying it for two years now, but I feel like I have barely scratched the surface.  I am excited that our school has decided to have a weekend intensive course on it this spring.  Maybe I can report back with more precise info on the Stems and Branches and write an article at that time.

-Delli</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi Michael,</p>
<p>  Thanks for your comments and questions.  I do not think I have ever seen the original taiji diagram that you speak of, but I would love to take a look at it if you can give me more info where to find it.  The only Eva Wong work I am familiar with is her translation of the Lie Zi, (which happens to be one of my all-time favorite reads)but I would be interested in getting the name of the book in which the diagram appears.</p>
<p>It is true that the taiji represents a whole lot more than just the movement of the Sun.  One of the original meanings of yin is &#8220;shady side of a hill&#8221; and one of the original meanings of yang is &#8220;sunny side of a hill&#8221;.  I think we can see an obvious correlation to the Sun and moon here. During the day when the sun is out we consider it yang, and when the sun goes down and the moon is apparent he have the yin night.  This is an infinite cycle just like the taiji.  Lots can be said about the taiji, but I had to control myself and limit what I said since it wasn&#8217;t the main topic of the article.  I would have loved to say more about it, but I just wanted to introduce the concept and its origins in lieu of the discussion on Metal and Wood.</p>
<p> Perhaps someday one of us will write a book on the hidden symbolism of the taiji!  I do want people to realize that the symbol is such a powerful one that it can be used to describe anything in nature.  That is why the theory is applicable in many different ways to Chinese Medicine on a microscopic level, and is not just a way of describing the laws of the macrocosm.  </p>
<p>I was actually just reading a handout from Dr. Edward Neal from 1/2/06 CPD class in which he states, &#8220;The circular motion of the Five Movements (Wu Xing) are generated directly from the interactions of Yin and Yang. These movements are found everywhere from the farthest reaches of our Galaxy to our backyard.  The movement of the Six Qi (liu qi) are manifestations of Yin and Yang that exist on our planet because of the fact that our Earth&#8217;s axis is tilted 23 degrees in relation to the Sun.  They are responsible for the change of season.&#8221; </p>
<p> In other words, Yin and Yang exists everywhere in the Universe, while Wu Yun applies to this galaxy, and the Liu Qi specifically go with this planet.  All of these have the same origin- Dao.</p>
<p>Much can be said about the Stems and Branches, but I think this would best be saved for a future article when I have a better grasp on it.  Studying Chinese Astrology will give you a much better understanding of how the Stems and Branches influence us.  It is true that the Stems originally were used to keep track of the 10 day week and the Branches correspond to the 12 months and 12 hour segments of the day.  This was the original counting and calendar system used by the ancient Chinese to keep track of time.  Every hour, day, month, and year have a Stem and Branch combo.  These combos tell us about the energy of the world at that time.  This information is used in Chinese Astrology to create the Ba Zi, or &#8220;the pillars of destiny&#8221; chart.  I believe this information to be extremely important for clinical purposes.  Part of my goal is to do Chinese Astrology charts for my patients BEFORE I even meet them for the first time.  This can tell us much about a person&#8217;s constitution.  I believe Chinese Medical Astrology is a crucial part of the medicine that has been forgotten.  In my opinion, it is also the most challenging part of the medicine to understand, and so maybe that is why it has been disregarded over time.  I have been studying it for two years now, but I feel like I have barely scratched the surface.  I am excited that our school has decided to have a weekend intensive course on it this spring.  Maybe I can report back with more precise info on the Stems and Branches and write an article at that time.</p>
<p>-Delli</p>
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		<title>By: Classical Chinese medical symbolism: Wood, Metal and Spring (part 2 of 2) &#124; Deepest Health: Exploring Classical Chinese Medicine</title>
		<link>http://deepesthealth.com/2008/classical-chinese-medical-symbolism-wood-metal-and-spring/comment-page-1/#comment-1263</link>
		<dc:creator>Classical Chinese medical symbolism: Wood, Metal and Spring (part 2 of 2) &#124; Deepest Health: Exploring Classical Chinese Medicine</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 18 Mar 2008 16:33:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://deepesthealth.com/2008/classical-chinese-medical-symbolism-wood-metal-and-spring/#comment-1263</guid>
		<description>[...] Here is the continuation of Michael &#8220;Delli&#8221; Dell&#8217;orfano&#8217;s article on the symbolism of wood, metal and the spring season in Classical Chinese medical symbolism. Please feel free to leave any thoughts you have on this two-part article in the comments. Lively discussion is always appreciated! If you missed the first installment, read it here.&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212; [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Here is the continuation of Michael &#8220;Delli&#8221; Dell&#8217;orfano&#8217;s article on the symbolism of wood, metal and the spring season in Classical Chinese medical symbolism. Please feel free to leave any thoughts you have on this two-part article in the comments. Lively discussion is always appreciated! If you missed the first installment, read it here.&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212; [...]</p>
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		<title>By: michael</title>
		<link>http://deepesthealth.com/2008/classical-chinese-medical-symbolism-wood-metal-and-spring/comment-page-1/#comment-1262</link>
		<dc:creator>michael</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 18 Mar 2008 04:19:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://deepesthealth.com/2008/classical-chinese-medical-symbolism-wood-metal-and-spring/#comment-1262</guid>
		<description>Great to see others writing on Eric&#039;s Blog!  Delli, I really appreciate your article.  Thanks for writing such a detailed description of these fundamentals of our medicine. 

It is interesting if you compare the diagram you provided of the Taiji with the most ancient representation of it (which I wish I could provide here; perhaps refer to Eva Wong&#039;s work...).  It is a picture of a half white (on the left) and half dark (on the right) circle surrounded by a half dark (on the left) and half white (right) ring, surrounded by another ring with the left half being white again and the right half dark.  If you combine these two images (yours and this one) I think it reveales the beauty of this symbol even more.

The Taiji in this light I think can be seen as a map of both time and space, for the concentric circles of dark and light provide depth.  This early depiction of the Taiji also shows how it is more than just a map of the path of the sun, but about the sun and the moon, about the seasons and the day and night, as well as an image to invoke a sense of unity within duality (much like the description you read of Delli regarding the wu xing being one cosmic force).  

I&#039;m very interested in the very clear distinction between the wu yun and liu qi (the five wanders in the sky and six atmospheric conditions) with regards to the tian gan and di zhi (the ten Heavenly Stems and the twelve Earthly Branches).  The ten Stems are obviously related to the yin-yang pairs of the five dynamic movements, which relate to the five inner planets.  The ten stems also relate to the old ten day week of the Shang, and so have to do with the inner realm of life due to the connection with the sun and the planets and finally related directly with the five zang.  

The twelve Branches though, relate more to the the twelve  constellations (or houses) and are yin-yang pairs of the six Qi, which connects them to the six conformations and the twelve channels.

What do you (Delli, Eric, anyone else reading...), make of the difference between the ten Stems and the twelve Branches in terms of how they relate to the five zang and six conformations?  Do the wu xing tell us something more about the internal zang, whereas the twelve constellations and Branches tell us something different about the six conformations (and twelve channels)?  How can we use this difference in clinic?  Finally, I wonder how this changes the notion of the &quot;cosmic unity&quot; of the wu xing, or at least brings up the question: &quot;is there a different kind of cosmic unity to the liu qi?&quot;

Of course, I&#039;m responding to only half of an article, so perhaps I should have waited.   But, you got me thinking Delli!

Thanks!
Michael</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Great to see others writing on Eric&#8217;s Blog!  Delli, I really appreciate your article.  Thanks for writing such a detailed description of these fundamentals of our medicine. </p>
<p>It is interesting if you compare the diagram you provided of the Taiji with the most ancient representation of it (which I wish I could provide here; perhaps refer to Eva Wong&#8217;s work&#8230;).  It is a picture of a half white (on the left) and half dark (on the right) circle surrounded by a half dark (on the left) and half white (right) ring, surrounded by another ring with the left half being white again and the right half dark.  If you combine these two images (yours and this one) I think it reveales the beauty of this symbol even more.</p>
<p>The Taiji in this light I think can be seen as a map of both time and space, for the concentric circles of dark and light provide depth.  This early depiction of the Taiji also shows how it is more than just a map of the path of the sun, but about the sun and the moon, about the seasons and the day and night, as well as an image to invoke a sense of unity within duality (much like the description you read of Delli regarding the wu xing being one cosmic force).  </p>
<p>I&#8217;m very interested in the very clear distinction between the wu yun and liu qi (the five wanders in the sky and six atmospheric conditions) with regards to the tian gan and di zhi (the ten Heavenly Stems and the twelve Earthly Branches).  The ten Stems are obviously related to the yin-yang pairs of the five dynamic movements, which relate to the five inner planets.  The ten stems also relate to the old ten day week of the Shang, and so have to do with the inner realm of life due to the connection with the sun and the planets and finally related directly with the five zang.  </p>
<p>The twelve Branches though, relate more to the the twelve  constellations (or houses) and are yin-yang pairs of the six Qi, which connects them to the six conformations and the twelve channels.</p>
<p>What do you (Delli, Eric, anyone else reading&#8230;), make of the difference between the ten Stems and the twelve Branches in terms of how they relate to the five zang and six conformations?  Do the wu xing tell us something more about the internal zang, whereas the twelve constellations and Branches tell us something different about the six conformations (and twelve channels)?  How can we use this difference in clinic?  Finally, I wonder how this changes the notion of the &#8220;cosmic unity&#8221; of the wu xing, or at least brings up the question: &#8220;is there a different kind of cosmic unity to the liu qi?&#8221;</p>
<p>Of course, I&#8217;m responding to only half of an article, so perhaps I should have waited.   But, you got me thinking Delli!</p>
<p>Thanks!<br />
Michael</p>
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