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	<title>Comments on: From the front line : Thoughts on running a Chinese Medicine Clinic</title>
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	<link>http://deepesthealth.com/cm-profession-news-and-issues/thoughts-from-the-front-line/</link>
	<description>Chinese Medicine</description>
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		<title>By: G. Michael Reynolds</title>
		<link>http://deepesthealth.com/cm-profession-news-and-issues/thoughts-from-the-front-line/#comment-2165</link>
		<dc:creator>G. Michael Reynolds</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 30 Jul 2010 15:33:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://deepesthealth.com/?p=906#comment-2165</guid>
		<description>I&#039;ve set up a spot on the forum for continuing this discussion as clearly it&#039;s something that needs continuing dialog. You can find it here: http://deepesthealth.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=4&amp;t=55</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;ve set up a spot on the forum for continuing this discussion as clearly it&#8217;s something that needs continuing dialog. You can find it here: <a href="http://deepesthealth.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=4&#038;t=55" rel="nofollow">http://deepesthealth.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=4&#038;t=55</a></p>
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		<title>By: Eric</title>
		<link>http://deepesthealth.com/cm-profession-news-and-issues/thoughts-from-the-front-line/#comment-2164</link>
		<dc:creator>Eric</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 30 Jul 2010 14:14:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://deepesthealth.com/?p=906#comment-2164</guid>
		<description>Regarding the treatment of pain I would definitely have to agree with Michael.  I had been treated for a rather vexing, sometimes debilitating pain condition of the lower back using a variety of acupuncture methods including some of the more modern trigger point therapies.  I have to admit that, among the methods I had used, the most innovative TCM+biomedicine seemed to have the most dramatically positive results.

Then I saw an intern of Ed Neal&#039;s at NCNM.  Ed collaborated closely with her in treatment.  I was pain free within 3 sessions.  The pain has never returned.  That&#039;s simply one, personal, example of the excellent results I have seen in person and heard about second-hand when a deeply Classical approach is used.

Eric</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Regarding the treatment of pain I would definitely have to agree with Michael.  I had been treated for a rather vexing, sometimes debilitating pain condition of the lower back using a variety of acupuncture methods including some of the more modern trigger point therapies.  I have to admit that, among the methods I had used, the most innovative TCM+biomedicine seemed to have the most dramatically positive results.</p>
<p>Then I saw an intern of Ed Neal&#8217;s at NCNM.  Ed collaborated closely with her in treatment.  I was pain free within 3 sessions.  The pain has never returned.  That&#8217;s simply one, personal, example of the excellent results I have seen in person and heard about second-hand when a deeply Classical approach is used.</p>
<p>Eric</p>
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		<title>By: G. Michael Reynolds</title>
		<link>http://deepesthealth.com/cm-profession-news-and-issues/thoughts-from-the-front-line/#comment-2163</link>
		<dc:creator>G. Michael Reynolds</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 30 Jul 2010 13:21:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://deepesthealth.com/?p=906#comment-2163</guid>
		<description>With respect, it&#039;s pretty easy to put just about anything up against the Chinese medicine taught/practiced in the US via the TCM model and see it as more effective. However, considering how few people on Earth are really practicing honest-to-goodness Classical acupuncture (I only know a couple) it&#039;s unlikely that most are in a position to make any kind of value judgment regarding the efficacy of the Classical way, only because they&#039;ve never actually come into contact with it.

To be a little more direct, it&#039;s fine and well to say that the Classics have their place and need to be combined with modern &quot;discoveries&quot;. However, this forces me as an advocate of the Classical approach to ask &quot;Ok, so have you learned de facto Classical acupuncture? What were your results? Where did it succeed? Where did you have trouble? How long did you study it? Whom did you learn from? How long did you use it?&quot;

No 0ffense intended Stéphane, but I&#039;ve yet to meet someone who had actually learned Classical acupuncture (rather than stating an off-the-cuff opinion) who then felt they needed to augment it with something else because of a lack of efficacy.

The best person I could possibly direct you to (because I am NOT trained in Classical acupuncture and only have a tiny amount of it under my belt, much to my shame) is Edward Neal. Have a look at his site here: http://www.neijingacupuncture.com/</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>With respect, it&#8217;s pretty easy to put just about anything up against the Chinese medicine taught/practiced in the US via the TCM model and see it as more effective. However, considering how few people on Earth are really practicing honest-to-goodness Classical acupuncture (I only know a couple) it&#8217;s unlikely that most are in a position to make any kind of value judgment regarding the efficacy of the Classical way, only because they&#8217;ve never actually come into contact with it.</p>
<p>To be a little more direct, it&#8217;s fine and well to say that the Classics have their place and need to be combined with modern &#8220;discoveries&#8221;. However, this forces me as an advocate of the Classical approach to ask &#8220;Ok, so have you learned de facto Classical acupuncture? What were your results? Where did it succeed? Where did you have trouble? How long did you study it? Whom did you learn from? How long did you use it?&#8221;</p>
<p>No 0ffense intended Stéphane, but I&#8217;ve yet to meet someone who had actually learned Classical acupuncture (rather than stating an off-the-cuff opinion) who then felt they needed to augment it with something else because of a lack of efficacy.</p>
<p>The best person I could possibly direct you to (because I am NOT trained in Classical acupuncture and only have a tiny amount of it under my belt, much to my shame) is Edward Neal. Have a look at his site here: <a href="http://www.neijingacupuncture.com/" rel="nofollow">http://www.neijingacupuncture.com/</a></p>
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		<title>By: Stéphane</title>
		<link>http://deepesthealth.com/cm-profession-news-and-issues/thoughts-from-the-front-line/#comment-2162</link>
		<dc:creator>Stéphane</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 30 Jul 2010 13:02:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://deepesthealth.com/?p=906#comment-2162</guid>
		<description>Good food for thought...
here are my thoughts about a couple points that struck me more:

#1 - I too had my share of health challenges and I find it helpful when relating to patients.  I looked at my health issues and dug deep.  This exercise helped me see deeper in my patients and their pathologies.
#3 – now, the treatment of pain (be it acute of chronic) is my favourite topic.  In my (brief) experience, what is taught in acupuncture schools regarding the treatment of pain is not very effective.  I  use the more modern concept of trigger points (which is related to, but different from Ashi points).  Using modern medical science discoveries along with ancient meridian theories is the way to go if we want to be effective.  I’ve treated chronic pain that was resistant to medication, osteopathy, chiro and physio for several years, in one or 2 treatments (and I’m talking 95% to 100% success that lasted).  I believe that it is essential to study the Classics and keep them in mind, but we also have to learn from what is good in modern bio-medicine.  This is what I saw in China, and they come up with new techniques that are impressively effective.
Patrick, you are right!  I was in China in  2005 and when I went back in 2010, I met an old friend still apparently in the same position, following the same doctor... my first thought was to consider it a failure to still be in the same subordinate position after 5 years.  But what you say is right.  He’s probably becoming a great doctor.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Good food for thought&#8230;<br />
here are my thoughts about a couple points that struck me more:</p>
<p>#1 &#8211; I too had my share of health challenges and I find it helpful when relating to patients.  I looked at my health issues and dug deep.  This exercise helped me see deeper in my patients and their pathologies.<br />
#3 – now, the treatment of pain (be it acute of chronic) is my favourite topic.  In my (brief) experience, what is taught in acupuncture schools regarding the treatment of pain is not very effective.  I  use the more modern concept of trigger points (which is related to, but different from Ashi points).  Using modern medical science discoveries along with ancient meridian theories is the way to go if we want to be effective.  I’ve treated chronic pain that was resistant to medication, osteopathy, chiro and physio for several years, in one or 2 treatments (and I’m talking 95% to 100% success that lasted).  I believe that it is essential to study the Classics and keep them in mind, but we also have to learn from what is good in modern bio-medicine.  This is what I saw in China, and they come up with new techniques that are impressively effective.<br />
Patrick, you are right!  I was in China in  2005 and when I went back in 2010, I met an old friend still apparently in the same position, following the same doctor&#8230; my first thought was to consider it a failure to still be in the same subordinate position after 5 years.  But what you say is right.  He’s probably becoming a great doctor.</p>
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		<title>By: Patrick</title>
		<link>http://deepesthealth.com/cm-profession-news-and-issues/thoughts-from-the-front-line/#comment-2161</link>
		<dc:creator>Patrick</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 30 Jul 2010 01:56:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://deepesthealth.com/?p=906#comment-2161</guid>
		<description>You may be surprised at the variety found in Chinese practices.  Good doctors invariably study the classics and/or have trained in a medical lineage.  Good doctors also invariably attract students who want to intern with them after graduation.

Even within the universities you can find good clinicians - unfortunately when you do, they still aren&#039;t allowed to teach &#039;off the book&#039;.  So formal education is a bland, dead, flawed system.  However, talk to them after class about their real interests, and you&#039;ll find a different medicine.  Because the residency is informal, you don&#039;t learn &quot;TCM&quot; with your teacher, you learn their art of medicine.

I don&#039;t see what makes this hard to do in America.  Find an experienced doctor you respect, who practices the medicine how you&#039;d like to practice, and work along side them (not across town, but side by side, every day) for a number of years.  If they&#039;re good, they probably have more patients than they can handle anyway.  Do we need to wait for it to become institutionalized?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You may be surprised at the variety found in Chinese practices.  Good doctors invariably study the classics and/or have trained in a medical lineage.  Good doctors also invariably attract students who want to intern with them after graduation.</p>
<p>Even within the universities you can find good clinicians &#8211; unfortunately when you do, they still aren&#8217;t allowed to teach &#8216;off the book&#8217;.  So formal education is a bland, dead, flawed system.  However, talk to them after class about their real interests, and you&#8217;ll find a different medicine.  Because the residency is informal, you don&#8217;t learn &#8220;TCM&#8221; with your teacher, you learn their art of medicine.</p>
<p>I don&#8217;t see what makes this hard to do in America.  Find an experienced doctor you respect, who practices the medicine how you&#8217;d like to practice, and work along side them (not across town, but side by side, every day) for a number of years.  If they&#8217;re good, they probably have more patients than they can handle anyway.  Do we need to wait for it to become institutionalized?</p>
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		<title>By: G. Michael Reynolds</title>
		<link>http://deepesthealth.com/cm-profession-news-and-issues/thoughts-from-the-front-line/#comment-2160</link>
		<dc:creator>G. Michael Reynolds</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 29 Jul 2010 15:18:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://deepesthealth.com/?p=906#comment-2160</guid>
		<description>Well the difficulty with a residency system is the same as in China, that the current primary model of Chinese medicine is TCM and further reinforcing that particular travesty is going to harm and not help. Learning a flawed system to the point of reflex is only going to produce flawed reflexes.

Now, if there were a couple inpatient facilities practicing one of the genuinely effective forms of CM (CCM being my preference of course) then we&#039;d be in business. But that may be a ways off yet.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well the difficulty with a residency system is the same as in China, that the current primary model of Chinese medicine is TCM and further reinforcing that particular travesty is going to harm and not help. Learning a flawed system to the point of reflex is only going to produce flawed reflexes.</p>
<p>Now, if there were a couple inpatient facilities practicing one of the genuinely effective forms of CM (CCM being my preference of course) then we&#8217;d be in business. But that may be a ways off yet.</p>
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		<title>By: Patrick</title>
		<link>http://deepesthealth.com/cm-profession-news-and-issues/thoughts-from-the-front-line/#comment-2159</link>
		<dc:creator>Patrick</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 29 Jul 2010 13:12:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://deepesthealth.com/?p=906#comment-2159</guid>
		<description>Tough situation.

Honestly, it&#039;s a difficult medicine, and good philosophy isn&#039;t always (or perhaps even often) enough.  There&#039;s a certain meat of experience that fills and transforms the same ideas you know into ideas you really understand.

In China, though the state of education in school is poor, good doctors continue their real education with teachers well after graduation.  Residencies can stretch years, even decades.  It takes different forms, some doctors work under their seniors in hospitals, some with their teacher in the same clinic.  Of course American schools have clinic rounds, though from what I hear, they are too short and often with many different teachers.  Nice to get a taste of different styles, but if that&#039;s all you get, just appetizers then out the door, well...

It takes time to learn a style, even more time to develop your own.  Theory plus practice equals wisdom and good teachers are catalysts.  Though it&#039;s a synthesis never really ends, there are discrete stages.  Without a residency system, I fear many may spend a lifetime without getting over the first hurdle.  Stages, wisdom, understanding - it&#039;s all vertical.  Cultivators unable to build up high enough, or dig down deep enough, reach out horizontally.

Get mad, the horizontal sprawl mentality is gas for the fire of our yin deficient day-and-age.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Tough situation.</p>
<p>Honestly, it&#8217;s a difficult medicine, and good philosophy isn&#8217;t always (or perhaps even often) enough.  There&#8217;s a certain meat of experience that fills and transforms the same ideas you know into ideas you really understand.</p>
<p>In China, though the state of education in school is poor, good doctors continue their real education with teachers well after graduation.  Residencies can stretch years, even decades.  It takes different forms, some doctors work under their seniors in hospitals, some with their teacher in the same clinic.  Of course American schools have clinic rounds, though from what I hear, they are too short and often with many different teachers.  Nice to get a taste of different styles, but if that&#8217;s all you get, just appetizers then out the door, well&#8230;</p>
<p>It takes time to learn a style, even more time to develop your own.  Theory plus practice equals wisdom and good teachers are catalysts.  Though it&#8217;s a synthesis never really ends, there are discrete stages.  Without a residency system, I fear many may spend a lifetime without getting over the first hurdle.  Stages, wisdom, understanding &#8211; it&#8217;s all vertical.  Cultivators unable to build up high enough, or dig down deep enough, reach out horizontally.</p>
<p>Get mad, the horizontal sprawl mentality is gas for the fire of our yin deficient day-and-age.</p>
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		<title>By: G. Michael Reynolds</title>
		<link>http://deepesthealth.com/cm-profession-news-and-issues/thoughts-from-the-front-line/#comment-2158</link>
		<dc:creator>G. Michael Reynolds</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 29 Jul 2010 02:21:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://deepesthealth.com/?p=906#comment-2158</guid>
		<description>I honestly have no idea. That&#039;s like asking &quot;What if the USA didn&#039;t exist and instead there were Dutch, English, and Mormon nations taking up most of North America?&quot; which would then of course be an L. E. Modesitt book series. :D

Seriously, I think this falls under Divine Providence/happens for a reason.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I honestly have no idea. That&#8217;s like asking &#8220;What if the USA didn&#8217;t exist and instead there were Dutch, English, and Mormon nations taking up most of North America?&#8221; which would then of course be an L. E. Modesitt book series. <img src='http://deepesthealth.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_biggrin.gif' alt=':D' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
<p>Seriously, I think this falls under Divine Providence/happens for a reason.</p>
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		<title>By: Bonnie</title>
		<link>http://deepesthealth.com/cm-profession-news-and-issues/thoughts-from-the-front-line/#comment-2157</link>
		<dc:creator>Bonnie</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 29 Jul 2010 02:16:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://deepesthealth.com/?p=906#comment-2157</guid>
		<description>Just because I like to be contrary, let me ask you this question.  If you weren&#039;t sort of sickly (despite being a healthy looking guy) would you have the patience and interest to treat those chronic people? Would you have the patience and understanding of their frustrations of doing everything &quot;right&quot; and still not getting the results that they&#039;d like?  Just a thought.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Just because I like to be contrary, let me ask you this question.  If you weren&#8217;t sort of sickly (despite being a healthy looking guy) would you have the patience and interest to treat those chronic people? Would you have the patience and understanding of their frustrations of doing everything &#8220;right&#8221; and still not getting the results that they&#8217;d like?  Just a thought.</p>
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