Deepest Health Chinese Medicine Podcast Episode 5 : Interview with Abdallah B. Stickley
I have a special treat for you. Deepest Health’s first podcast interview! I am honored to offer this interview of Abdallah B. Stickley talking about his practice and teaching of Contemporary Pulse Diagnosis, his work with Dr. Leon Hammer, his understanding of Classical Chinese Medicine and more. Near the end of the podcast, Abdallah and I discuss a number of topics that refer to our upcoming project here on Deepest Health.
As a first try at a long-distance podcast interview, we didn’t do a bad job - but I recognize that the recording quality doesn’t do the content justice! I do hope you enjoy it. Note: I have higher quality recording equipment on the way and hope you will stick with me while my skills and knowledge increase! Thanks again.
Note: I will not be doing my normal Friday summary podcast - I’m going to wait to do another one until I get my new sound equipment, which should arrive around August 13. I hope you will enjoy the new sound!
Some important links to sites and books discussed in the podcast:
- Abdallah’s site covering Chinese medicine, self-cultivation, Islam and much more : Even Unto China
- Dragon Rises.org : site containing articles, links and information about seminars pertaining to Contemporary Pulse Diagnosis
- Dragon Rises College of Oriental Medicine
- Dr. Leon Hammer’s two most well-known books (affiliate links - if you buy through them, Deepest Health gets a small percentage of the sale - thanks!) :
Dragon Rises, Red Bird Flies
Chinese Pulse Diagnosis: A Contemporary Approach (Revised Edition)
Click below to play the podcast:
Deepest Health Chinese Medicine Podcast Episode 5 _ Interview with Abdallah B. Stickley [35:04m]: Play Now | Play in Popup | Download (145)If you like what you read here, you may want to keep updated by using my RSS feed. Want to know more about RSS/feeds? - read more here. Thanks for visiting!
Tags: abdallah stickley, interview, links, Podcast, pulseRelated posts
Deepest Health Chinese Medicine Podcast : Episode 4 - Cancer, pulse taking and trust
Hey everyone,
It’s time for another Friday podcast from me! On this episode, I talk about my experience treating patients with cancer - particularly around the question “what can Chinese medicine do for cancer?” I realize that some of you are probably expecting the next article in my cancer series, hopefully this will hold you off a little bit longer. :) I also discuss pulse taking and my difficulty with it in this podcast. I wrap up the show with a discussion of a problem a dear friend has been having in terms of his confidence in prescribing formulas. I think it’s a common problem we all face, so I thought I would share his story. The names have been omitted to protect the innocent. :D
Please have a listen using the player below. I discuss my new blogs in the podcast as well, so I thought I would provide the links again:
My personal blog, Ericgrey.com, and
the Natural Medicine Business Success blog. Both are still in their infancy, but I expect you will be hearing plenty from them soon.
Deepest Health Chinese Medicine podcast : Episode 4 [20:57m]: Play Now | Play in Popup | Download (117)Related posts
Term in review part I : On shift with Arnaud Versluys
I’d like to go back over Fall term 2007 and distill what I feel to be the essence of what I learned in each course or clinic shift. It’s really fascinating to me how full of importance every single class turns out to be, regardless of my feeling of any one class at the onset. Over time this has taught me to be utterly open to the content of every course, the offerings of every teacher.
At NCNM, we begin our clinical education working in the Chinese herbal medicinary, and then graduate to Observation shifts, finally moving on to Internship the summer of our third year. Observation shifts are well named - mostly you watch. To some this may sound boring, but it is anything but. Trying to follow the doctor’s reasoning, observing the minute action of fingers on the pulse, the flashes of understanding as the patient reveals some seemingly minor detail… it’s all so valuable. We are able to take the pulse and look at the tongue, and with some doctors we are able to ask questions of our own. Some doctors have students remove needles or do some of the less intrusive therapies, like indirect moxibustion. During the “down time” when patients are lying with their needles inserted, some doctors will teach in quite a formal way, others simply take questions, still others like to joke around and get to know their students. We are in Observation for two years, beginning in the second year.
This term, I had the distinct pleasure of being one of four students on Arnaud Versluy’s Observation II shift. I have been on three other observation shifts so far, all of them were wonderful learning experiences and each so unique! However, Arnaud’s shift was a different animal altogether. I’m not sure if this is just because of something inherent in Arnaud or if it is because of my deep resonance with his basic medical philosophy and enjoyment of our interactions - either way, I learned so much on this shift I wish I could repeat it for my remaining Observation shifts!
Pulse taking
All of our doctors use the pulse in their diagnosis, but none so far have done so in such detail as Arnaud did this term. This may be due to the fact that he is a scholar and clinician in the Shang Han Lun tradition and in this school the pulse is emphasized. We began to learn a whole Shang Han Lun based pulse system, but really had to piece things together for ourselves. I believe he reveals more about this system in his mentorship tutorial, which is a fourth year opportunity. From what I can tell, the system has similarities to that espoused in the Nan Jing especially in terms of pulse positions and incorporates a system of formula differentiation as distilled from the Shang Han Lun text. The idea is to learn the pulses and their correspondences so well that as soon as you feel a pulse, you prescribe a formula without much question. There are, of course, exceptions to this rule - but our trust in the pulse should be above our trust in the patient’s ability to fully articulate their pathological process.
This makes sense to me, above all, because of my own experience as a patient. It is rare that I can tell a doctor “what’s wrong” and while I can sometimes articulate very strange, and very diagnostically helpful symptoms - most of the time, I just don’t feel right. :D
We also learned some basic pulse taking mechanics. It’s funny, because for all that we learned pulse qualities and the history of the view of pulse positions - we never learned “how to take a pulse” in any systematic way. Sometimes these basics get lost in the shuffle, I suppose. Arnaud gave us those basics on shift and I can tell you that my ability to learn from each pulse I take increased immeasurably.
Modular character of classical formulas
Arnaud is a formula guy, first and foremost. His point selections are intriguing, but it is in the realm of formulas that his brilliance is clearest to see. The easiest way to get him to talk a blue streak was to ask an insightful, but simple, question about a particular formula or formula modification. I’m sad to say that I probably didn’t take enough advantage of this resource - but when I did, the results were both deep and broad.
What I learned most was that the nature of classical (or canonical, as he likes to say) Chinese herbal formulas are exceedingly modular. What this means is that if you take half a dozen of the most used Shang Han formulas you will see numerous overlaps that make it simple to combine formulas without adding too many ingredients or making the formula too big. This creates an extremely wide therapeutic output with just a small number of different herbs. It also means that the dosages and combinations in classical formulas are EXTREMELY tight. If there are 9 grams of Gui Zhi and 9 grams of Bai Shao in a formula, changing one of those dosages to 6 grams produces an entirely different effect. So, the practice of willy nilly modifying formulas based on wanting “a little more of this and a little less of that” probably isn’t a great idea.
Thinking about formulas this way has completely changed the way I study them. Instead of looking at formulas in relative isolation or placed in arbitrary categories (as found in most formula text books) I look at formulas as in relationship with one another. All of the formulas that contain a similar ratio of two herbs are going to be related in some deep way. This allows me to more fully understand the function of the formulas and be more effective with them in clinic. Practically, whenever I learn a new formula, I spend some time searching for related formulas usually using electronic resources I have created myself. Then I read all I can about these related formulas, particularly anything included in the Classical texts. I seek to comprehend the similarities and differences. In some cases, I have also looked at all formulas with a particular two or three herb combination, regardless of dosage. This is also instructive.
Learning to ask good questions
As I’ve already mentioned, we usually got the most out of shift when we were brave enough to ask bold, yet succinct, questions. I tend not to speak up in academic group situations. Because of the rambling and pointless nature of some questions asked in many classes (Chinese medicine or not) I tend to wait until I have a truly important, well-informed and brief question to ask of a professor before I’m willing to put myself out there. However, I know that this policy has probably negatively impacted my educational experience in some small ways. My academic relationship with Arnaud is helping me to get better at quickly coming up with relevant and insightful questions. I hope this skill continues to develop.
In sum, my term with Dr. Versluys was quite enriching. I’d be interested to hear the stories of other people, even in other schools, about their early clinical experiences. Any disasters? Any moments of earth-shattering insight? Let us know in the comments. If you’re interested in hearing more about my experiences in medical school, be sure to subscribe to this blog via RSS feed or via email.
Eric
Tags: academics, arnaud versluys, Character, chinese-herb, clinic, education, ncnm, pulse, studyRelated posts
7 keys to understanding the Classical Chinese Medicine concept of organs
I’d like to piggyback off of the organ clock post and introduce the Chinese medicine theory of organs in a little more
depth. It’s important to understand that there is not just one right way to view the body. There is no more validity in viewing it in the Western medicine manner than there is in viewing it in the Chinese medicine manner. Each system (and many others) have taken different features of the human being to be primary, each system has used their own conceptual understanding to render a viable picture of the body and its interactions. Perhaps most importantly, each system uses their vision of the human being to craft effective treatments. It seems that different systems will create different spheres of effectiveness - a topic for a future post. With no further ado, here are seven things you need to know to enhance your understanding of Chinese medicine organ systems.
- There are twelve organ systems in Chinese medicine: Heart, Small Intestine, Bladder, Kidney, Pericardium, Triple Burner, Gall Bladder, Liver, Lung, Large Intestine, Stomach and Spleen. The typical convention is to capitalize when we are talking about Chinese organ systems and not to capitalize when we are referring to the anatomical organ known to Western medicine. Another convention is to refer to the in the singular. So, for instance, the Lung organ system includes the Lungs, but we don’t say - for example - The emotion of the Lungs is grief.
- They’re not ORGANS. Probably the most important thing to understand is that the Classical Chinese view is not based on materialism. Although the ancient Chinese did investigate the inside of the body and were clearly aware of the physical structures that Western medicine now names “organs” this is not primary for the medicine’s understanding. The organ is included in a larger concept that is often called the “organ system,” which you have already seen me use many times. This organ system includes the physical organ, it’s associated channel(s), the tissues, surfaces, functions and other bodily features associated with that organ and other more rarefied aspects of the system.
- The organs work together as a dynamic whole. While each system has specific functions and can be talked about in isolation, the beauty of the Chinese medical view of the body only becomes truly apparent when you focus on the interconnections. No system is complete without seeing its relationship to the rest. This can make it a little confusing to study because our brains seem to find it simpler to focus on one mono-dimensional thing at a time. TCM has largely lost its understanding of the physiological interactions of the organs except where those interactions are extremely simplified.
- The organs are a reflection of the macrocosm. This principle relates back to Chinese philosophical understanding of the holographic nature of reality. For a complete review of the holographic worldview, see Michael Talbot’s The Holographic Universe. The basic gist of this philosophy is that the fundamental nature of reality is reflected in its smallest pieces just as much as in its largest. The small reflect the large, and the large reflect the small - they’re both reflecting something much deeper than themselves. In Chinese medicine we study this principle all the time. On one level, each organ is a reflection of all the others - the parts reflect the whole. On another level, the total complex of organs and each organ individually reflect some aspect of nature. For example, the Heart reflects the nature of our Sun and acts as such within the body. Understanding these layers of meaning help us to fully comprehend the human body, and studying the human body through this lens helps us to gain a greater understanding about the Universe. It’s funny like that.
- Following from that, then, the organ systems can be understood using natural and governmental symbolism. For me personally, learning about the Chinese concept of the body was much easier once I learned to think about it as an ecosystem or as a country. With the former, I could simply walk in nature in a mindful way and reflect on the various features I found there. IS the Heart like the Sun? What would that mean if it were? How does that bear out in diagnosis? In treatment? I think this practice does its work on more subtle levels as well - it must be why we are constantly urged to spend time in nature as CCM students. Using metaphors about the government helped me a great deal in understanding the functional relationships between organ systems. If the Heart is like the Emperor (or the King, possibly the President) then what relationships should I see between it and the Lung, which is said to be like the Prime Minister (or Presidential Cabinet?).
- The organs’ interrelationships are therapeutically useful. Far from being a simple intellectual exercise, understanding the organ systems as networks of interrelationship bears out in treatment. An example: imagine we are looking at some kind of problem that - through the intake process, including tongue and pulse taking - we come to understand as being centered in the Heart organ system. A TCM process of differentiation would then focus on the Heart, most likely, only adding other organ systems in limited circumstances (such as adding Lung if there are breathing difficulties). A more nuanced approach will consider the interrelationships using various systems, such as five-element or six conformation. Using a five element approach, we might wonder whether fire is failing to be generated by wood, or whether it is being over-controlled by water. We would search for symptoms that might suggest this, we would recheck the pulse to see whether we had missed something. There are specific systems to use when doing these investigations, but the key is simply to dive deeply into the physiology in order to comprehend pathology. It will yield excellent treatment.
- Even with this complex understanding - the organ systems are not PRIMARY. In a sense, the organ systems are simply a useful way of organizing the overwhelming amount of information we can get from studying the human body. It is a convenient way because it has clear physical correlates. But we must also consider the fluids of the body (Qi, Blood, Jing, Shen, JinYe) as well as any more subtle aspects of the human being. We must also keep in mind that the body is not just a jumble of parts, but a integral functioning whole - when we treat we are not “tonifying the Kidney” but instead having a specific kind of impact on an infinitely complicated system using a particular technique. Maybe that’s splitting hairs, but it seems an important distinction.
There’s a lot more to know - but that’s a good start. Please put any questions or thoughts in the comments!
Eric Grey
Tags: classical-chinese-medicine, exercise, five phases, flu, focus, health, Learning, liver, lung, materialism, nature, organ system, Organ systems, organizing, overwhelm, pericardium, philosophy, pulse, rest, spleen, students, study, studying, symbolism, tea, Theory, traditional-chinese-medicine, visionRelated posts
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